Many people in this forum have claimed that the Bible contains lots of fulfilled prophecies. This is hard to tell for me, because of the vague language employed, but let's say it's true. My question then is..what about the unfulfilled prophecies. There seem to be a few of them in the Bible. Let me give an example from Isaiah:
An oracle concerning Damascus: "See, Damascus will no longer be a city but will become a heap of ruins. The cities of Aroer will be deserted (some Bibles here add "forever") and left to flocks, which will lie down, with no one to make them afraid." (Isaiah 17:1-2)
Well, last time I checked a world map Damascus was still there. It's the capital of Syria, population 2,335,000. Failed prophecy? You be the judge.
Unfulfilled prophecies
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Dilettante
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Post #2
Not having consulted my Bible yet, I don't know if there is any indication of the timing prophecied. Obviously, the easy way out is to say 'it hasn't happened yet but it will.'
This is a good question to consider. I don't know if you would want to include the additional problem of people in the past having misinterpreted prophecies. For example, there are the many people who interpreted the Bible to say the world would end at a date that has already passed. Hal Lindsay is just one of the more modern of those who has made this mistake.
This is a good question to consider. I don't know if you would want to include the additional problem of people in the past having misinterpreted prophecies. For example, there are the many people who interpreted the Bible to say the world would end at a date that has already passed. Hal Lindsay is just one of the more modern of those who has made this mistake.
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juliod
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Post #3
In my view an unfulfilled prophesy is a failure, unless it is specifically about the distant future. To count as a prophesy at all it must relate to the original audience in a meaningful way.what about the unfulfilled prophecies
Tell a Bronze Age audience that Damascus will be destroyed, and had better be destroyed at the very least within the Bronze Age. What may happen millenia later is not a fulfillment of a prophesy.
A prophesy must also be specific and significant. "It will rain in North America" is not a prophesy.
To count as fulfilled, a prophesy must:
1) Be universally recognized as fulfilled.
2) Have a universal interpretation as to it's significance and meaning.
3) Have a significance outside the mundane or ordinary.
(By universal I obviously mean to include near universal where only a few loonies or radicals object.)
So, given these standards, has there ever been a fulfilled prophesy? No, I didn't think so.
DanZ
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prophecy
Post #4Juliod, it strikes me that youre imposing your own personal restrictions on what can be considered a fulfilled prophecy so that you dont have to admit that Biblical prophecies have indeed been fulfilled. Youre saying that, if you dont recognize a prophecy as having been fulfilled, then the prophecy has to be tossed out. Thats not a valid approach to the subject.
What is Biblical prophecy? Its God revealing to people what he is going to do. Why did he send prophets with messages? It wasnt to impress non-believers or even convince them that hes real (although it may well be that people do come to a realization of him because of fulfilled prophecy). The purpose of them was simply to show his people that he was at work in the world and, specifically, in their lives. In some cases, he was warning them of disastrous events, but, generally, he was revealing himself to them and building their faith.
Dilettante, I disagree with your statement about Bible prophecies being vague. In truth, theyre highly detailed and the fact that those which have been fulfilled have been fulfilled to the tiniest detail is one of the proofs that theres a divine presence at work. Biblical prophecies are not like those of astrologers who make predictions like "Youre going to have an adventure this month and visit a place youve never visited before", that is, statements that can be interpreted in countless ways.
For example, there are some 25 detailed prophecies concerning the betrayal, trial, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus given by prophets over five hundred years. All of them were fulfilled down to the last detail. The odds against all of them being fulfilled completely is estimated at one in 33,554,438. And if the law of Compound Probabilities is applied in the same way to all the predictions fulfilled at Christ's first coming (there are over 100 if them), the chances that they could accidentally be fulfilled by one person is one in billions.
I can just hear you atheists saying, "Well, I dont believe Jesus was real" (even though there is non-Biblical historical evidence that he was) and I can hear you complaining, "I think the Bible is fictitious so I dont believe any of the prophecies re: Jesus came true, etc."
Thats fine. We can look at some of the ones that don't pertain to Christ, ones that non-Christian historians have recorded. Here are just a few examples:
The following 10 Bible prophecies were fulfilled in 1948 when Israel became an independent, united nation for the second time in history, and for the first time in 2,900 years.
1. Jacob's descendants would regain control of Israel
Bible passage: Amos 9:14-15
Written: about 750 BC
Fulfilled: Since 1948
In Amos 9:14-15, the prophet said that there would come a time when the exiles of Israel would again have Israel as their own land and that they would never be uprooted again. Amos lived about 2700 years ago, during a time when the people of Israel were being forced out of their homeland by a succession of foreign invasions. Despite many centuries of exile, many Jews returned to Israel and reclaimed sovereignty over a portion of their ancient homeland. This declaration of independence, in 1948, triggered a war with the surrounding countries, which objected to the presence of a Jewish state. On May 15, 1948, the day that armies from the surrounding countries invaded, Azzam Pasha, the Secretary General of the Arab League, said "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades." Similar quotes were uttered by others during the war of 1948-49 and during the two major wars that followed. Despite its tiny size, Israel prevailed in these wars, preventing its people from being uprooted again, as they had been in ancient times.
Amos 9:14-15
I will bring back my exiled people Israel; they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit. I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them," says the Lord your God.
2. Israel would be brought back to life
Bible passage: Ezekiel 37:10-14
Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: 1948
In Ezekiel 37:10-14, the prophet receives a vision in which Israel was seen as a scattering of dried-up bones. In this vision, God tells Ezekiel that the bones (Israel) would be brought back to life. Just as Ezekiel had prophesized about 2600 years ago, the Jews were brought back to the land, and the country of Israel was brought back to life. Israel re-established sovereignty in 1948, a mere three years after the end of the Holocaust, during which the Nazis killed about one-third of the world's Jewish population.
Ezekiel 37:10-14
So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet--a vast army. Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.' Therefore prophesy and say to them: This is what the Sovereign Lord says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.'"
3. Isaiah spoke of a Israel being reborn in one day
Bible passage: Isaiah 66:7-8
Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
Fulfilled: 1948
In Isaiah 66:7-8, the prophet foreshadowed the re-birth of Israel in 1948. Isaiah describes a woman giving birth before going into labor, and he speaks of a country being born in one day. This accurately describes what happened on May 14, 1948 - when the Jews declared independence for Israel as a united and sovereign nation for the first time in 2900 years.
During that same day, the United States issued a statement recognizing Israel's sovereignty. And, only hours beforehand, a United Nations mandate expired, ending British control of the land. During a 24-hour span of time, foreign control of the land of Israel had formally ceased, and Israel had declared its independence, and its independence was acknowledged by other nations. Modern Israel was literally was born in a single day.
Isaiah said the birth would take place before there would be labor pains. And that too is precisely what happened. A movement called Zionism began in the 1800s to encourage Jews worldwide to move to Israel, which at that time was called Palestine. Within hours of the declaration of independence in 1948, Israel was attacked by the surrounding countries of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Saudi Arabia.
When reading Isaiah 66:7-8, keep in mind that Israel's status as a sovereign nation was established and reaffirmed during the course of a single day, and that it was born of a movement called Zionism, and that its declaration of independence was not the result of a war but rather the cause of one.
Isaiah 66:7-8
"Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son. Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children."
4. Israel would be re-established as a united nation
Bible passage: Ezekiel 37:21-22
Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: 1948
In Ezekiel 37:21-22, the prophet said that God would one day bring the people of Israel back to Israel, as a united nation. This might have been a shock for Ezekiel. He lived about 2600 years ago. At that time, the people of Israel had already divided themselves into two separate kingdoms. And, both kingdoms had been conquered by foreign invaders, who forced many of the people, including Ezekiel, into exile. But, when Jews reclaimed sovereignty in 1948, they did so as a united people, creating one nation - Israel.
Ezekiel 37:21-22
and say to them, This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms.
5. The second Israel would be more impressive than the first
Bible passage: Jeremiah 16:14-15
Written: sometime from 626 to about 586 BC
Fulfilled: 1948
In Jeremiah 16:14-15, the prophet said the second Israel would be more impressive than the first. In many regards, it is. The first time that Israel was established as a country was after Moses led the descendants of Jacob (typically referred to today as Jews) out of Egypt, where they had been enslaved for 400 years. They then conquered Canaan and established Israel about 3400 years ago. But the second time that Israel was established was after the Jews had been scattered far and wide for a few thousand years. This time the Jews had to return from as far away as the United States, China, Russia and South Africa.
Jeremiah 16:14-15
"However, the days are coming," declares the Lord, "when men will no longer say, As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,' but they will say, As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the Israelites up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.' For I will restore them to the land I gave their forefathers.
6. Ezekiel predicted when Israel would be re-established
Bible passage: Ezekiel 4:3-6
Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: 1948
In Ezekiel 4:3-6, the prophet said the Jews, who had lost control of their homeland, would be punished for 430 years. This prophecy, according to Bible scholar Grant Jeffrey, pinpointed the 1948 rebirth of Israel. Here's a summary of Jeffrey's theory:
a) Ezekiel said the Jews were to be punished for 430 years because they had turned away from God. As part of the punishment, the Jews lost control of their homeland to Babylon. Many Jews were taken as captives to Babylon.
b) Babylon was later conquered by Cyrus in 539 BC. Cyrus allowed the Jews to leave Babylon and to return to their homeland. But, only a small number returned. The return had taken place sometime around 536 BC, about 70 years after Judah lost independence to Babylon.
c) Because most of the exiles chose to stay in pagan Babylon rather than return to the Holy Land, the remaining 360 years of their punishment was multiplied by 7. The reason is explained in Bible's book of Leviticus. (Leviticus 26:18, 26:21, 26:24 and 26:28). In Leviticus, it says that if the people did not repent while being punished, the punishment would be multiplied by 7. And, by staying in pagan Babylon, most exiles were refusing to repent.
d) So, if you take the remaining 360 years of punishment and multiply by 7, you get 2,520 years. But, Jeffrey says those years are based on an ancient 360-day lunar calendar. If those years are adjusted to the modern solar calendar, the result is 2,484 years.
e) And, there were exactly 2,484 years from 536 BC to 1948, which is the year that Israel regained independence.
Ezekiel 4:3-6
(In this Bible passage, Ezekiel is asked by God to symbolically act out the 430 years of punishment)
Then take an iron pan, place it as an iron wall between you and the city and turn your face toward it. It will be under siege, and you shall besiege it. This will be a sign to the house of Israel. "Then lie on your left side and put the sin of the house of Israel upon yourself. You are to bear their sin for the number of days you lie on your side. I have assigned you the same number of days as the years of their sin. So for 390 days you will bear the sin of the house of Israel. "After you have finished this, lie down again, this time on your right side, and bear the sin of the house of Judah. I have assigned you 40 days, a day for each year.
7. The people of Israel would return to "their own land"
Bible passage: Ezekiel 34:13
Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: after May 14, 1948
In Ezekiel 34:13, the prophet said that God would gather the people of Israel scattered throughout the world and bring them back to "their own land." After many centuries of dispersion, hundreds of thousands of Jews returned to their ancient homeland beginning in the late 1800s. But, millions more returned after Israel declared independence in 1948. In other words, millions of exiles returned to their ancient homeland which was now truly "their own land" in the sense that it was now a sovereign Jewish state.
Ezekiel 34:13
I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land.
8. God would watch over the people of Israel
Bible passage: Jeremiah 31:10
Written: sometime from 626 to about 586 BC
Fulfilled: 1948, etc.
In Jeremiah 31:10, the prophet said that God would one day gather the Jews back to Israel and that He would watch over them like a shepherd. Believe what you wish, but there is evidence that God indeed has watched over the re-established nation of Israel. Hours after Israel declared independence in 1948, the surrounding countries attacked, hoping to replace the Jewish state with an Arab state. These countries are much larger than Israel. But tiny Israel prevailed in that war and was able to capture additional land, increasing the land size of Israel by 50 percent. Israel also prevailed in the two other major wars that followed.
Jeremiah 31:10
"Hear the word of the Lord, O nations; proclaim it in distant coastlands: He who scattered Israel will gather them and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.'
9. Israel's army would be disproportionately powerful
Bible passage: Leviticus 26:3, 7-8
Written: perhaps around 1400 BC
Fulfilled: 1948-49, 1967, etc.
In Leviticus 26:3, 7-8, the Bible says that the army of Israel would have a supernatural power to prevail during times of conflict, if the people are obedient to the Lord. This Bible passage says that 5 people would be able to chase away 100 people, and that 100 would be able to chase away 10,000. Is there any proof to this incredible claim? Judge for yourself:
Example 1: Within hours of Israel's declaration of independence in 1948, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Lebanon invaded Israel. The combined population of those countries was at least 20 million at that time. Israel had fewer than 1 million Jews. Even so, the Jews won the war and expanded the size of Israel by 50 percent.
Example 2: During the War of 1967, Israel attacked the air force bases of the surrounding countries and took control of Jerusalem for the first time in about 2000 years. They also seized additional territory. That war lasted a mere 6 days.
Example 3: On Oct. 6, 1973, Israel was attacked by Egypt and Syria. Other countries later joined the attack. But the Jews were able to push back the attacking armies and occupy land outside of Israel's borders.
Leviticus 26:3, 7-8
"If you follow my decrees and are careful to obey my commands, You will pursue your enemies, and they will fall by the sword before you. Five of you will chase a hundred, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand, and your enemies will fall by the sword before you."
10. The fortunes of the people of Israel would be restored
Bible passage: Deuteronomy 30:3-5
Written: perhaps 1400 BC
Fulfilled: 1948, etc.
In Deuteronomy 30:3-5, the Bible said the Jews would be scattered worldwide and that they later would return to their homeland and have their fortunes restored. This prophecy began to be fulfilled in modern times during the late 1800s when many Jews returned to Israel, from as far away as China and the United States, Russia and South Africa. Israel declared independence in 1948. Today, Israel is among the world's most prosperous countries. In 1999, for example, Israel's per capita Gross Domestic Product was twice as prosperous than the neighboring countries.
Deuteronomy 30:3-5
then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. He will bring you to the land that belonged to your fathers, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers.
I felt lazy and merely cut and pasted the above from the following site where you can read about 90 other fulfilled prophecies from the Bible:
http://www.100prophecies.org/page3.htm
Here are a few more to consider:
The Destruction of Tyre
It does not usually surprise us to learn that prophecies have been fulfilled, but sometimes the way in which they are fulfilled is incredible. For example, Ezekiel had said that Tyre would be destroyed and that the ruins would be cast into the sea (26:12). This provoked scoffing because, when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Tyre, he left the ruins right where they fellon the land. But 200 years later, Alexander the Great attacked Tyre and the inhabitants withdrew to an island just off the coast for safety. In order to reach them, Alexander threw all of the debris, stones, timbers, dust, and everything else, into the sea to build a causeway that would reach the island. Just as Ezekiel said, "You will be a place for the spreading of nets"
Cyrus King of Persia
One of the most specific Old Testament predictions identifies Cyrus of Persia before he was even born. Isaiah 44:28-45:1: "The Lord . . . who says of Cyrus, 'He is my shepherd and will accomplish all that I please; he will say of Jerusalem, "Let it be rebuilt," and of the temple, "Let its foundations be laid." ' This is what the Lord says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armor, to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut."
This prediction was made some 150 years before Cyrus was even born. Since Isaiah lived between about 740 and 690 b.c. (2 Kings 25:21) and Cyrus did not make his proclamation for Israel to return from exile until about 536 (Ezra 1), there would have been no human way for him to know what Cyrus would be named or do. The attempt of critics to divide Isaiah and postdate the prophecy is without foundation and is a backhanded compliment to the detail and accuracy of the prediction.
The Doom of Edom (Petra)
Unlike many Old Testament predictions of doom, Edom was not promised any restoration, only "perpetual desolation." Jeremiah wrote in 49:16-17: "The terror you inspire and the pride of your heart have deceived you, you who live in the clefts of the rocks, who occupy the heights of the hill. Though you build your nest as high as the eagle's, from there I will bring you down,' declares the Lord. 'Edom will become an object of horror; all who pass by will be appalled and will scoff because of all its wounds."
Given the virtually impregnable nature of the ancient city carved out of rock and protected by a narrow passage way, this was an incredible prediction. Yet, in A.D. 636 it was conquered by Muslims and stands deserted but for tourist and passers by.
The above are from: Geisler, N. L. 1999. Baker encyclopedia of Christian apologetics. Baker reference library . Baker Books: Grand Rapids, Mich.
Prophecies are often only fully understood in retrospect like that explained in number 6 above where the prophecy about the birth of Israel being in 1948 is explained. I'm sure that, down through the years, nobody was saying, "The Bible says Israel will become a nation again in 1948." It was only in retrospect, when looking at the Scripture verses in question that people realized God had pinpointed the country's rebirth in the year 1948.
In fact, a lot of people had given up on Israel ever being a nation again. Some theologians started to interpret prophecy about Israel in a new way, suggesting that the Church had replaced Israel and that Israel was officially dead. This is known as replacement theology.
It's also important to note that some prophecies are progressive, that is, parts of them are fulfilled at different times throughout history. Such is the case with Isaiah 17:1. It's a prophecy being fulfilled in stages with the final stage yet to come. Heres an article addressing Isaiah 17:1 for further explanation:
http://www.gracethrufaith.com/ikvot/isa ... g-damascus
Well, that's an awfully long post. My thanks to all who took the time to read it.
What is Biblical prophecy? Its God revealing to people what he is going to do. Why did he send prophets with messages? It wasnt to impress non-believers or even convince them that hes real (although it may well be that people do come to a realization of him because of fulfilled prophecy). The purpose of them was simply to show his people that he was at work in the world and, specifically, in their lives. In some cases, he was warning them of disastrous events, but, generally, he was revealing himself to them and building their faith.
Dilettante, I disagree with your statement about Bible prophecies being vague. In truth, theyre highly detailed and the fact that those which have been fulfilled have been fulfilled to the tiniest detail is one of the proofs that theres a divine presence at work. Biblical prophecies are not like those of astrologers who make predictions like "Youre going to have an adventure this month and visit a place youve never visited before", that is, statements that can be interpreted in countless ways.
For example, there are some 25 detailed prophecies concerning the betrayal, trial, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus given by prophets over five hundred years. All of them were fulfilled down to the last detail. The odds against all of them being fulfilled completely is estimated at one in 33,554,438. And if the law of Compound Probabilities is applied in the same way to all the predictions fulfilled at Christ's first coming (there are over 100 if them), the chances that they could accidentally be fulfilled by one person is one in billions.
I can just hear you atheists saying, "Well, I dont believe Jesus was real" (even though there is non-Biblical historical evidence that he was) and I can hear you complaining, "I think the Bible is fictitious so I dont believe any of the prophecies re: Jesus came true, etc."
Thats fine. We can look at some of the ones that don't pertain to Christ, ones that non-Christian historians have recorded. Here are just a few examples:
The following 10 Bible prophecies were fulfilled in 1948 when Israel became an independent, united nation for the second time in history, and for the first time in 2,900 years.
1. Jacob's descendants would regain control of Israel
Bible passage: Amos 9:14-15
Written: about 750 BC
Fulfilled: Since 1948
In Amos 9:14-15, the prophet said that there would come a time when the exiles of Israel would again have Israel as their own land and that they would never be uprooted again. Amos lived about 2700 years ago, during a time when the people of Israel were being forced out of their homeland by a succession of foreign invasions. Despite many centuries of exile, many Jews returned to Israel and reclaimed sovereignty over a portion of their ancient homeland. This declaration of independence, in 1948, triggered a war with the surrounding countries, which objected to the presence of a Jewish state. On May 15, 1948, the day that armies from the surrounding countries invaded, Azzam Pasha, the Secretary General of the Arab League, said "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades." Similar quotes were uttered by others during the war of 1948-49 and during the two major wars that followed. Despite its tiny size, Israel prevailed in these wars, preventing its people from being uprooted again, as they had been in ancient times.
Amos 9:14-15
I will bring back my exiled people Israel; they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit. I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them," says the Lord your God.
2. Israel would be brought back to life
Bible passage: Ezekiel 37:10-14
Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: 1948
In Ezekiel 37:10-14, the prophet receives a vision in which Israel was seen as a scattering of dried-up bones. In this vision, God tells Ezekiel that the bones (Israel) would be brought back to life. Just as Ezekiel had prophesized about 2600 years ago, the Jews were brought back to the land, and the country of Israel was brought back to life. Israel re-established sovereignty in 1948, a mere three years after the end of the Holocaust, during which the Nazis killed about one-third of the world's Jewish population.
Ezekiel 37:10-14
So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet--a vast army. Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.' Therefore prophesy and say to them: This is what the Sovereign Lord says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.'"
3. Isaiah spoke of a Israel being reborn in one day
Bible passage: Isaiah 66:7-8
Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
Fulfilled: 1948
In Isaiah 66:7-8, the prophet foreshadowed the re-birth of Israel in 1948. Isaiah describes a woman giving birth before going into labor, and he speaks of a country being born in one day. This accurately describes what happened on May 14, 1948 - when the Jews declared independence for Israel as a united and sovereign nation for the first time in 2900 years.
During that same day, the United States issued a statement recognizing Israel's sovereignty. And, only hours beforehand, a United Nations mandate expired, ending British control of the land. During a 24-hour span of time, foreign control of the land of Israel had formally ceased, and Israel had declared its independence, and its independence was acknowledged by other nations. Modern Israel was literally was born in a single day.
Isaiah said the birth would take place before there would be labor pains. And that too is precisely what happened. A movement called Zionism began in the 1800s to encourage Jews worldwide to move to Israel, which at that time was called Palestine. Within hours of the declaration of independence in 1948, Israel was attacked by the surrounding countries of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Saudi Arabia.
When reading Isaiah 66:7-8, keep in mind that Israel's status as a sovereign nation was established and reaffirmed during the course of a single day, and that it was born of a movement called Zionism, and that its declaration of independence was not the result of a war but rather the cause of one.
Isaiah 66:7-8
"Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son. Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children."
4. Israel would be re-established as a united nation
Bible passage: Ezekiel 37:21-22
Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: 1948
In Ezekiel 37:21-22, the prophet said that God would one day bring the people of Israel back to Israel, as a united nation. This might have been a shock for Ezekiel. He lived about 2600 years ago. At that time, the people of Israel had already divided themselves into two separate kingdoms. And, both kingdoms had been conquered by foreign invaders, who forced many of the people, including Ezekiel, into exile. But, when Jews reclaimed sovereignty in 1948, they did so as a united people, creating one nation - Israel.
Ezekiel 37:21-22
and say to them, This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms.
5. The second Israel would be more impressive than the first
Bible passage: Jeremiah 16:14-15
Written: sometime from 626 to about 586 BC
Fulfilled: 1948
In Jeremiah 16:14-15, the prophet said the second Israel would be more impressive than the first. In many regards, it is. The first time that Israel was established as a country was after Moses led the descendants of Jacob (typically referred to today as Jews) out of Egypt, where they had been enslaved for 400 years. They then conquered Canaan and established Israel about 3400 years ago. But the second time that Israel was established was after the Jews had been scattered far and wide for a few thousand years. This time the Jews had to return from as far away as the United States, China, Russia and South Africa.
Jeremiah 16:14-15
"However, the days are coming," declares the Lord, "when men will no longer say, As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,' but they will say, As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the Israelites up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.' For I will restore them to the land I gave their forefathers.
6. Ezekiel predicted when Israel would be re-established
Bible passage: Ezekiel 4:3-6
Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: 1948
In Ezekiel 4:3-6, the prophet said the Jews, who had lost control of their homeland, would be punished for 430 years. This prophecy, according to Bible scholar Grant Jeffrey, pinpointed the 1948 rebirth of Israel. Here's a summary of Jeffrey's theory:
a) Ezekiel said the Jews were to be punished for 430 years because they had turned away from God. As part of the punishment, the Jews lost control of their homeland to Babylon. Many Jews were taken as captives to Babylon.
b) Babylon was later conquered by Cyrus in 539 BC. Cyrus allowed the Jews to leave Babylon and to return to their homeland. But, only a small number returned. The return had taken place sometime around 536 BC, about 70 years after Judah lost independence to Babylon.
c) Because most of the exiles chose to stay in pagan Babylon rather than return to the Holy Land, the remaining 360 years of their punishment was multiplied by 7. The reason is explained in Bible's book of Leviticus. (Leviticus 26:18, 26:21, 26:24 and 26:28). In Leviticus, it says that if the people did not repent while being punished, the punishment would be multiplied by 7. And, by staying in pagan Babylon, most exiles were refusing to repent.
d) So, if you take the remaining 360 years of punishment and multiply by 7, you get 2,520 years. But, Jeffrey says those years are based on an ancient 360-day lunar calendar. If those years are adjusted to the modern solar calendar, the result is 2,484 years.
e) And, there were exactly 2,484 years from 536 BC to 1948, which is the year that Israel regained independence.
Ezekiel 4:3-6
(In this Bible passage, Ezekiel is asked by God to symbolically act out the 430 years of punishment)
Then take an iron pan, place it as an iron wall between you and the city and turn your face toward it. It will be under siege, and you shall besiege it. This will be a sign to the house of Israel. "Then lie on your left side and put the sin of the house of Israel upon yourself. You are to bear their sin for the number of days you lie on your side. I have assigned you the same number of days as the years of their sin. So for 390 days you will bear the sin of the house of Israel. "After you have finished this, lie down again, this time on your right side, and bear the sin of the house of Judah. I have assigned you 40 days, a day for each year.
7. The people of Israel would return to "their own land"
Bible passage: Ezekiel 34:13
Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: after May 14, 1948
In Ezekiel 34:13, the prophet said that God would gather the people of Israel scattered throughout the world and bring them back to "their own land." After many centuries of dispersion, hundreds of thousands of Jews returned to their ancient homeland beginning in the late 1800s. But, millions more returned after Israel declared independence in 1948. In other words, millions of exiles returned to their ancient homeland which was now truly "their own land" in the sense that it was now a sovereign Jewish state.
Ezekiel 34:13
I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land.
8. God would watch over the people of Israel
Bible passage: Jeremiah 31:10
Written: sometime from 626 to about 586 BC
Fulfilled: 1948, etc.
In Jeremiah 31:10, the prophet said that God would one day gather the Jews back to Israel and that He would watch over them like a shepherd. Believe what you wish, but there is evidence that God indeed has watched over the re-established nation of Israel. Hours after Israel declared independence in 1948, the surrounding countries attacked, hoping to replace the Jewish state with an Arab state. These countries are much larger than Israel. But tiny Israel prevailed in that war and was able to capture additional land, increasing the land size of Israel by 50 percent. Israel also prevailed in the two other major wars that followed.
Jeremiah 31:10
"Hear the word of the Lord, O nations; proclaim it in distant coastlands: He who scattered Israel will gather them and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.'
9. Israel's army would be disproportionately powerful
Bible passage: Leviticus 26:3, 7-8
Written: perhaps around 1400 BC
Fulfilled: 1948-49, 1967, etc.
In Leviticus 26:3, 7-8, the Bible says that the army of Israel would have a supernatural power to prevail during times of conflict, if the people are obedient to the Lord. This Bible passage says that 5 people would be able to chase away 100 people, and that 100 would be able to chase away 10,000. Is there any proof to this incredible claim? Judge for yourself:
Example 1: Within hours of Israel's declaration of independence in 1948, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Lebanon invaded Israel. The combined population of those countries was at least 20 million at that time. Israel had fewer than 1 million Jews. Even so, the Jews won the war and expanded the size of Israel by 50 percent.
Example 2: During the War of 1967, Israel attacked the air force bases of the surrounding countries and took control of Jerusalem for the first time in about 2000 years. They also seized additional territory. That war lasted a mere 6 days.
Example 3: On Oct. 6, 1973, Israel was attacked by Egypt and Syria. Other countries later joined the attack. But the Jews were able to push back the attacking armies and occupy land outside of Israel's borders.
Leviticus 26:3, 7-8
"If you follow my decrees and are careful to obey my commands, You will pursue your enemies, and they will fall by the sword before you. Five of you will chase a hundred, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand, and your enemies will fall by the sword before you."
10. The fortunes of the people of Israel would be restored
Bible passage: Deuteronomy 30:3-5
Written: perhaps 1400 BC
Fulfilled: 1948, etc.
In Deuteronomy 30:3-5, the Bible said the Jews would be scattered worldwide and that they later would return to their homeland and have their fortunes restored. This prophecy began to be fulfilled in modern times during the late 1800s when many Jews returned to Israel, from as far away as China and the United States, Russia and South Africa. Israel declared independence in 1948. Today, Israel is among the world's most prosperous countries. In 1999, for example, Israel's per capita Gross Domestic Product was twice as prosperous than the neighboring countries.
Deuteronomy 30:3-5
then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. He will bring you to the land that belonged to your fathers, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers.
I felt lazy and merely cut and pasted the above from the following site where you can read about 90 other fulfilled prophecies from the Bible:
http://www.100prophecies.org/page3.htm
Here are a few more to consider:
The Destruction of Tyre
It does not usually surprise us to learn that prophecies have been fulfilled, but sometimes the way in which they are fulfilled is incredible. For example, Ezekiel had said that Tyre would be destroyed and that the ruins would be cast into the sea (26:12). This provoked scoffing because, when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Tyre, he left the ruins right where they fellon the land. But 200 years later, Alexander the Great attacked Tyre and the inhabitants withdrew to an island just off the coast for safety. In order to reach them, Alexander threw all of the debris, stones, timbers, dust, and everything else, into the sea to build a causeway that would reach the island. Just as Ezekiel said, "You will be a place for the spreading of nets"
Cyrus King of Persia
One of the most specific Old Testament predictions identifies Cyrus of Persia before he was even born. Isaiah 44:28-45:1: "The Lord . . . who says of Cyrus, 'He is my shepherd and will accomplish all that I please; he will say of Jerusalem, "Let it be rebuilt," and of the temple, "Let its foundations be laid." ' This is what the Lord says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armor, to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut."
This prediction was made some 150 years before Cyrus was even born. Since Isaiah lived between about 740 and 690 b.c. (2 Kings 25:21) and Cyrus did not make his proclamation for Israel to return from exile until about 536 (Ezra 1), there would have been no human way for him to know what Cyrus would be named or do. The attempt of critics to divide Isaiah and postdate the prophecy is without foundation and is a backhanded compliment to the detail and accuracy of the prediction.
The Doom of Edom (Petra)
Unlike many Old Testament predictions of doom, Edom was not promised any restoration, only "perpetual desolation." Jeremiah wrote in 49:16-17: "The terror you inspire and the pride of your heart have deceived you, you who live in the clefts of the rocks, who occupy the heights of the hill. Though you build your nest as high as the eagle's, from there I will bring you down,' declares the Lord. 'Edom will become an object of horror; all who pass by will be appalled and will scoff because of all its wounds."
Given the virtually impregnable nature of the ancient city carved out of rock and protected by a narrow passage way, this was an incredible prediction. Yet, in A.D. 636 it was conquered by Muslims and stands deserted but for tourist and passers by.
The above are from: Geisler, N. L. 1999. Baker encyclopedia of Christian apologetics. Baker reference library . Baker Books: Grand Rapids, Mich.
Prophecies are often only fully understood in retrospect like that explained in number 6 above where the prophecy about the birth of Israel being in 1948 is explained. I'm sure that, down through the years, nobody was saying, "The Bible says Israel will become a nation again in 1948." It was only in retrospect, when looking at the Scripture verses in question that people realized God had pinpointed the country's rebirth in the year 1948.
In fact, a lot of people had given up on Israel ever being a nation again. Some theologians started to interpret prophecy about Israel in a new way, suggesting that the Church had replaced Israel and that Israel was officially dead. This is known as replacement theology.
It's also important to note that some prophecies are progressive, that is, parts of them are fulfilled at different times throughout history. Such is the case with Isaiah 17:1. It's a prophecy being fulfilled in stages with the final stage yet to come. Heres an article addressing Isaiah 17:1 for further explanation:
http://www.gracethrufaith.com/ikvot/isa ... g-damascus
Well, that's an awfully long post. My thanks to all who took the time to read it.
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juliod
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Post #5
No, no no. And you know that isn't what I mean, since I specifically said that if only a few people reject that it is not a barrier. So even if I reject it then it can still count as a fulfilled prophesy if most everyone else does.Juliod, it strikes me that youre imposing your own personal restrictions on what can be considered a fulfilled prophecy so that you dont have to admit that Biblical prophecies have indeed been fulfilled.
Right. I agree with that. So any fulfillment of a prophesy must be in context with the lives of the people to whom the prophesy was given.The purpose of them was simply to show his people that he was at work in the world and, specifically, in their lives.
And here we have the typical christian molestation of mathematics.The odds against all of them being fulfilled completely is estimated at one in 33,554,438.
OK. So show how this supposed fulfillment was relevant to the lives of the people living in the first millenium BC.The following 10 Bible prophecies were fulfilled in 1948 when Israel became an independent, united nation for the second time in history, and for the first time in 2,900 years.
You can't. Not one of the prophesies gives the date of 1948 AD. That would be necessary since you wrote: "In truth, theyre highly detailed and the fact that those which have been fulfilled have been fulfilled to the tiniest detail is one of the proofs that theres a divine presence at work."
None of the prophesies you quote are detailed at all. They all failed to be fulfilled in any meaningful way in the context of the original audience. You've got nothing.
DanZ
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Dilettante
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Post #6
Overcomer, for the sake of argument, I am willing to admit that some prophecies were fulfilled. My question was, what about the ones which weren't? How can unfulfilled prophecies be accounted for?
Also, for a time it was clear to Christians that Jesus' second coming would take place during early Christian times, as apparently Jesus himself says that it would happen during the lifetime of many of his contemporaries. When this failed to happen, the interpretation changed and the unpredictability of the event was emphasized and I imagine that what was once prophecy came to be interpreted by Christians (Adventists excepted) as eschatology (Magus Yanam and micatala will correct me if I am wrong). It is interesting also that in New Testament times prophets seemed to lose the considerable importance that they had had in the Old Testament. Except for one example: Revelation, which is really apocalyptic prophecy (eschatology).
Another unfulfilled prophecy in Isaiah reads thus:
"In that day men will look to their Maker and turn their eyes to the Holy One of Israel. They will not look to the altars, the work of their hands, and they will have no regard for the Asherah poles and the incense altars their fingers have made. In that day their strong cities, which they left because of the Israelites, will be like places abandoned to thickets and undergrowth. And all will be desolation. (Isaiah 17:7-9)"
This has simply not happened, at least not yet. The Assyrians did not convert to Judaism after conquering Aram and Israel. And instead of leaving their cities after being defeated by the Israelites, it was the other way around. The Israelites were the ones who were defeated. So I guess this prophecy is still about some unspecified future time. The problem is, when there is no time limit for the fulfillment of a prophecy, the probabilities of its being fulfilled someday by someone actually increase. Critics see this as "moving the goalposts", and understandably so.
It would seem logical for prophecies to directly affect the generation addressed by the prophet rather than some future generation. I have often wondered if perhaps prophecies (like Roman "prodigia") were not so much about the future as about the present. In other words, I wonder if their function was not to warn people that they must change their ways or else. The function of the prophet would then be that of a moralist, aiming to change or reverse deviant behavior via threats of divine punishment.
The language of prophecies may be clear to you, but it is not so clear to me. I am puzzled by the fact that Jews do not interpret those prophecies about Jesus in the same way as Christians do, a fact which points out to their not being clear. Another problem is that prophecies about Jesus are confirmed by the same Scriptures where they originate, and the question of to what extent Jesus is described using elements of previous prophecies is left open. There is a certain circularity and I fail to see how this could be avoided.Dilettante, I disagree with your statement about Bible prophecies being vague. In truth, theyre highly detailed and the fact that those which have been fulfilled have been fulfilled to the tiniest detail is one of the proofs that theres a divine presence at work. Biblical prophecies are not like those of astrologers who make predictions like "Youre going to have an adventure this month and visit a place youve never visited before", that is, statements that can be interpreted in countless ways. For example, there are some 25 detailed prophecies concerning the betrayal, trial, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus given by prophets over five hundred years. All of them were fulfilled down to the last detail. The odds against all of them being fulfilled completely is estimated at one in 33,554,438. And if the law of Compound Probabilities is applied in the same way to all the predictions fulfilled at Christ's first coming (there are over 100 if them), the chances that they could accidentally be fulfilled by one person is one in billions.
Also, for a time it was clear to Christians that Jesus' second coming would take place during early Christian times, as apparently Jesus himself says that it would happen during the lifetime of many of his contemporaries. When this failed to happen, the interpretation changed and the unpredictability of the event was emphasized and I imagine that what was once prophecy came to be interpreted by Christians (Adventists excepted) as eschatology (Magus Yanam and micatala will correct me if I am wrong). It is interesting also that in New Testament times prophets seemed to lose the considerable importance that they had had in the Old Testament. Except for one example: Revelation, which is really apocalyptic prophecy (eschatology).
Another unfulfilled prophecy in Isaiah reads thus:
"In that day men will look to their Maker and turn their eyes to the Holy One of Israel. They will not look to the altars, the work of their hands, and they will have no regard for the Asherah poles and the incense altars their fingers have made. In that day their strong cities, which they left because of the Israelites, will be like places abandoned to thickets and undergrowth. And all will be desolation. (Isaiah 17:7-9)"
This has simply not happened, at least not yet. The Assyrians did not convert to Judaism after conquering Aram and Israel. And instead of leaving their cities after being defeated by the Israelites, it was the other way around. The Israelites were the ones who were defeated. So I guess this prophecy is still about some unspecified future time. The problem is, when there is no time limit for the fulfillment of a prophecy, the probabilities of its being fulfilled someday by someone actually increase. Critics see this as "moving the goalposts", and understandably so.
It would seem logical for prophecies to directly affect the generation addressed by the prophet rather than some future generation. I have often wondered if perhaps prophecies (like Roman "prodigia") were not so much about the future as about the present. In other words, I wonder if their function was not to warn people that they must change their ways or else. The function of the prophet would then be that of a moralist, aiming to change or reverse deviant behavior via threats of divine punishment.
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juliod
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Post #7
Yes. If prophesies are supposed to be messages from god to the people, then it isn't really possible for them to be misunderstood by different sects.I am puzzled by the fact that Jews do not interpret those prophecies about Jesus in the same way as Christians do, a fact which points out to their not being clear.
DanZ
Post #8
I am still dumbfounded by the fact that Gods chosen people, suddenly is not Gods chosen people after the Old Testment, What changed ?Yes. If prophesies are supposed to be messages from god to the people, then it isn't really possible for them to be misunderstood by different sects.
DanZ
The Christian Religion is based on the Jewish one, you cant interpret the Jewish faith differently because you dont like it, but for some reason, Christians do. I know for a fact that most Christians never read the entire Bible (Old and New), so no wonder, if they did, they would be forced to re-interpret it so much that they would evolved into smurfs before their done.
Post #9
This is a very big problem when debating with Chrisitians who have actually been indoctrinated with a belief before even reading the bible. It is so easy to populatea beliefs then interpret writings to fit that belief.LillSnopp wrote:I am still dumbfounded by the fact that Gods chosen people, suddenly is not Gods chosen people after the Old Testment, What changed ?Yes. If prophesies are supposed to be messages from god to the people, then it isn't really possible for them to be misunderstood by different sects.
DanZ
The Christian Religion is based on the Jewish one, you cant interpret the Jewish faith differently because you dont like it, but for some reason, Christians do. I know for a fact that most Christians never read the entire Bible (Old and New), so no wonder, if they did, they would be forced to re-interpret it so much that they would evolved into smurfs before their done.
Many things Jesus is noted as having said have direct links to OT writings however Chrisitians who are ignorant of the OT don't understand what Jesus is saying.
Thus they incorporate interpretations that fit their beliefs. If they had a better understanding of the OT, the history of the israelites and their GOD YAH, and the concepts set up for this nation prior to Jesus they would better understand some of the statements he is noted as having said in the NT.
Most of the claims that Chrisitans make about statements he made that they intepret as him saying he is GOD could easily be explained as otherwise by a novice studying the OT.
RELIGION IS A PRISON FOR THE SEEKERS OF WISDOM
Simplicity is Profundity
Simply put if you cant prove it, you cant reasonably be mad at me for not believing it
Simplicity is Profundity
Simply put if you cant prove it, you cant reasonably be mad at me for not believing it
Post #10
I know I am late in the game in this one.juliod wrote:To count as fulfilled, a prophesy must:
1) Be universally recognized as fulfilled.
2) Have a universal interpretation as to it's significance and meaning.
3) Have a significance outside the mundane or ordinary.
(By universal I obviously mean to include near universal where only a few loonies or radicals object.)
So, given these standards, has there ever been a fulfilled prophesy? No, I didn't think so.
I would agree with those who question the validity of these assumptions. Why must prophecy be universal? Why could not a prophecy only speak to and/or apply to a certain group of people?
I would agree that much of the biblical prophecies are 'vague', should not be taken too literally, and we should allow for a variety of interpretations. Yes, this does mean that we might have a hard time all agreeing on whether a prophecy has been 'fulfilled' or not, but so what.
I guess a question to consider is 'what is the purpose of prophecy?'
Some might say the function of prophecy is to 'prove' that God or the adherents of the religion that make the prophecy are 'validated' when the prophecy comes true. I don't subscribe to this idea. I think it is mostly beside the point.
Some might say prophecies are made to give the audience of the prophecy hope, or to point them in a particular direction or towards a particular action. I would put some of Isaiah and Jeremiah in this category. A prophecy which has this function does not need to come true to serve its purpose.
I sometimes think there is a kind of 'Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle' which applies to matters spiritual or religious. The act of observation can affect the outcome. In this case, a whole bunch of people 'observing' or otherwise 'interacting' with a prophecy can change if or how it comes about. (Alright, maybe this a wacky idea, but what can i say; I like to make connections between disparate concepts
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