Question about Jews

Argue for and against Christianity

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Autodidact
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Post #61

Post by Autodidact »

I'm sorry, I should have made my point more clear. It is simply that most Christians believe that killing is acceptable in the right circumstances, and chances are that you are one of them.
Certainly. Like Jesus and His apostles, we are free thinking and logical people too. You are confusing martyrdom with a good cause. BUT, there is no way to justify kiling people "In the Name of" Jesus. Martyrdom is the only response in that aspect.
Sorry, I'm just not following you. What is your point? You may assert that the many thousands of Christians who murdered hundreds of thousands of people in the name of Jesus were mistaken, but you have no more authority on the subject than they.

Certainly, I wouldn't hold up the fruits of Christianity for close inspection, because for most of its history its fruits have been genocide, slavery, torture, murder, and repression.
So what was the point of your question?
Simply to respond to yours.
I don't know any such thing; I don't even know whether there was any such person, or if so exactly what he may have done or said. I don't understand the point you are trying to make in that paragraph either; could you clarify?
If that "any such person" is Jesus (?), than you shoud excuse yourself from this website. Jesus-deniers have no place in debates like these, even if this thread is about questions about Jews. Maybe even more appropriate actually now that I think about it.
You might want to review the forum rules. It's a place for debate for all, not just Christians.

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Suluby
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Post #62

Post by Suluby »

Holyspirit213 wrote: Why do the Jews claim messiah all the time and then die. I mean I saw like 3 or 4 Jew rabbis claiming the messiah and then dying. Do they speak to god and does god tell them they are the messiah or do they get so into themselves that they actually start relating themselves as the messiah?
Huh????



FYI - "rabbi" is the modern title that designates Jewish clergy. Saying "Jew rabbi" is unnecessary. And, to some, it sounds bigoted.

.

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Tex
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Post #63

Post by Tex »

Goat wrote:
Tex wrote:


Tex: Question.....Do you even believe that the person who wrote Acts traveled with Saint Paul....As the scholars do?



I believe that is the claim that the author of Luke/Acts makes.. and, it is possible that as a young man, he traveled, .. and then when he was much older, wrote the GOL/Acts as a counter theology to some of the other Gospels that came out. .. so of as 'let's straighten out the errors these people made'. If I was going to give odds, I would give it a greater than 50% chance... but not over 80.

The scenario that I heard that makes the most sense is that he was writing as an older man, about things that happened in his youth, and died before he wrote the third part.



Tex: So then we have a witness confirming Saint Paul was preaching the Gospel right after the death of Christ. When he wrote it, doesn't really matter.

cnorman18

Post #64

Post by cnorman18 »

I perceive a certain amount of subtle Jew-baiting going on here, but perhaps that's just me.
99percentatheism wrote:
cnorman18
I tend to agree with Goat: "credit" is hardly the issue.
Not a bad sentiment I guess.
Even so, it is true that my people have done much good in the world -- in the sciences, in law, in literary and artistic pursuits, in government, in medicine, and in many other fields, far out of proportion to our numbers.
Yes. John the Baptist, Jesus, Peter and the crew and Paul all Jews . . . set the world on the greatest path in history.
Well, there you are. Is the implication that only Jews who became Christians ought to be considered?

I was thinking more along the lines of (at random) Boris Pasternak, Saul Bellow, Albert Einstein, Neils Bohr, Jonas Salk, Henry Kissinger, Milton Friedman, Abe Fortas, and on down to cultural figures like Leonard Bernstein, Marilyn Monroe, and Jack Benny. I didn't have in mind only the Jews who participated in the founding of Christianity.

There have been influential Jews who have lived since New Testament times, you know.
That may be because we have been free to focus on the task at hand, and to see truths clearly in ANY field, since we are not bound or blinkered by religious dogmas nor distracted by the need to compel, or even convince, others to share our beliefs and values.

Yet Torah-observant "Jews" make a very big show of that. Daily, weekly and yearly in fact. A BIG show of it.
A big show of what? How, exactly, would one make "a big show" of NOT holding to religious dogma, or NOT trying to proselytize or force others to follow our own beliefs?
Not that I'm complaining. Keeping the faith in the face of a degenerate world is quite the accomplishment.
Still not clear on what you're saying. Keeping our faith to ourselves, and not ramming it down others' throats, doesn't seem like something you'd admire... And I'm still not clear on how one "makes a big show" of that.
As to not receiving "credit" -- I suspect that that has much to do with the consistent teachings of the dominant religious authorities in the West, for nineteen hundred of the last two thousand years, that Jews are to be despised as deicides, ritual murderers, and greedy conspirators out to exploit and dominate the rest of society.
So true. European pagan influences have really screwed up a sizeable chunk of the religious world. Especially as they are mixed with Judean-Messianic worship of Jesus.
First, I don't think the "pagans" put "Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children" into the Gospel of Matthew (27:25). Since every Christian denomination and sect for more than a thousand years formally taught that "Jews are to be despised as deicides, ritual murderers, and greedy conspirators out to exploit and dominate the rest of society," I don't know that you can blame antisemitism on "European pagan influences." Pope Innocent III, St. John Chrysostom, and Martin Luther were hardly pagans. Even Muslims were more accepting and tolerant of Jews in the Middle Ages, far more so than Christians.

Second, Jews never conceived of worshiping the Messiah. That is a Christian invention, and was never a part of Judaism. Ever. Therefore "Judeo-Messianic worship of Jesus" is a non sequitur.

We Jews have a special term for "Messianic Jews," you know. We call then "Christians."
Such teachings are still promulgated in the dark corners of hatred that remain in the West, and openly in government-sponsored and -funded news and entertainment media, as well as in public teaching and preaching from current religious authorities, in the Muslim world.
And always will be it seems.
Like I said, you can still find plenty of that among Christians as well. It's not hard. Just Google "hate Jews."
Thank G-d, that Israeli's can count on Conservative Evangelicals (Christians) to always support them.
Yes, we are grateful for the support of American Christians. One wonders if it will last when they realize that very few Jews have any interest in rebuilding the Temple, and even fewer in converting to Christianity.

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Goat
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Post #65

Post by Goat »

Tex wrote:
Goat wrote:
Tex wrote:


Tex: Question.....Do you even believe that the person who wrote Acts traveled with Saint Paul....As the scholars do?



I believe that is the claim that the author of Luke/Acts makes.. and, it is possible that as a young man, he traveled, .. and then when he was much older, wrote the GOL/Acts as a counter theology to some of the other Gospels that came out. .. so of as 'let's straighten out the errors these people made'. If I was going to give odds, I would give it a greater than 50% chance... but not over 80.

The scenario that I heard that makes the most sense is that he was writing as an older man, about things that happened in his youth, and died before he wrote the third part.



Tex: So then we have a witness confirming Saint Paul was preaching the Gospel right after the death of Christ. When he wrote it, doesn't really matter.
Well.. we have possible witness who was a witness of Paul. We don't have one for Jesus. And, we don't know exactly what Paul 'preached'.. he certainly didn't preach what is written in the synopitc gospels.. those were written after Paul's death.

One theory about the reason the author of Luke/Acts waited so long was to 'correct' the gospels that were written. There is evidence that the author of Luke/acts used Jospehus antiquities as a source, which made the author fairly old when he wrote it.. IF he actually did travel with Paul..
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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