If all you knew about Jesus

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Elijah John
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If all you knew about Jesus

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

It is said that the apostle Paul never met Jesus in the flesh, only in a vision.

Yet he preached "Christ crucified".

Question for debate, if all you knew about Jesus was that he "died for your sins" would that be enough for salvation?

If you knew nothing of Jesus teachings, nothing of his vision of right and wrong, would it be enough just to believe that he died for you?

What does conventional, orthodox Christianity teach?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Tired of the Nonsense
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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #41

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

Deleted by TotN
Image "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." -- Albert Einstein -- Written in 1954 to Jewish philosopher Erik Gutkind.

Elijah John
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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #42

Post by Elijah John »

Tired of the Nonsense wrote:
Elijah John wrote: It is said that the apostle Paul never met Jesus in the flesh, only in a vision.

Yet he preached "Christ crucified".

Question for debate, if all you knew about Jesus was that he "died for your sins" would that be enough for salvation?

If you knew nothing of Jesus teachings, nothing of his vision of right and wrong, would it be enough just to believe that he died for you?

What does conventional, orthodox Christianity teach?
Let me address the OP directly.

"If all you knew about Jesus was that he 'died for your sins' would that be enough for salvation? "

Does a strict interpretation of the question somehow prevent me from understanding that Jesus lived 2,000 years ago? Because EVERYONE who lived 2,000 years ago died, and they did not do it for anyone else's "sins." They died because people do not live 2,000 years.

Otherwise, no claim that some guy whom I otherwise apparently knew nothing else about at all, would convince me much of anything at all.
I refer you to Otseng's clarification on a similar subject.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 322#762322

Just as it is unreasonable to turn EVERY topic here into a debate about God's very existence, it is also unreasonable to turn every topic here into a debate about the existence of Jesus, or the reality of the state of salvation.

Every topic/OP implies certain assumptions, if only for the sake of argument.

And those assumptions set the parameters for that particular debate.

It is not necessary to agree WITH those assumptions, but it is expected that the parameters of the debate set by the OP will be adhered to.

In other words, stay on topic please. Don't try to redefine the topic. If you don't like the topic, or you think the parameters of the topic in question is unfair, then don't participate or start a thread of your own.

Or if you truly do not understand the OP, then ask for clarification.

Otherwise, one is just being dismissive and disrespectful.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Tired of the Nonsense
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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #43

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

Elijah John wrote:
Tired of the Nonsense wrote:
Elijah John wrote: It is said that the apostle Paul never met Jesus in the flesh, only in a vision.

Yet he preached "Christ crucified".

Question for debate, if all you knew about Jesus was that he "died for your sins" would that be enough for salvation?

If you knew nothing of Jesus teachings, nothing of his vision of right and wrong, would it be enough just to believe that he died for you?

What does conventional, orthodox Christianity teach?
Let me address the OP directly.

"If all you knew about Jesus was that he 'died for your sins' would that be enough for salvation? "

Does a strict interpretation of the question somehow prevent me from understanding that Jesus lived 2,000 years ago? Because EVERYONE who lived 2,000 years ago died, and they did not do it for anyone else's "sins." They died because people do not live 2,000 years.

Otherwise, no claim that some guy whom I otherwise apparently knew nothing else about at all, would convince me much of anything at all.
I refer you to Otseng's clarification on a similar subject.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 322#762322

Just as it is unreasonable to turn EVERY topic here into a debate about God's very existence, it is also unreasonable to turn every topic here into a debate about the existence of Jesus, or the reality of the state of salvation.

Every topic/OP implies certain assumptions, if only for the sake of argument.

And those assumptions set the parameters for that particular debate.

It is not necessary to agree WITH those assumptions, but it is expected that the parameters of the debate set by the OP will be adhered to.

In other words, stay on topic please. Don't try to redefine the topic. If you don't like the topic, or you think the parameters of the topic in question is unfair, then don't participate or start a thread of your own.

Or if you truly do not understand the OP, then ask for clarification.

Otherwise, one is just being dismissive and disrespectful.
You have now created an issue which did not exist. My question to you, the one you quoted above, DIRECTLY concerned the OP and nothing else. You have succeeded in derailing your own OP, it would now seem with a side issue that had nothing whatsoever to do with my response to your OP. Didn't you like my answer?
Image "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." -- Albert Einstein -- Written in 1954 to Jewish philosopher Erik Gutkind.

Elijah John
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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #44

Post by Elijah John »

Elijah John wrote: It is said that the apostle Paul never met Jesus in the flesh, only in a vision.

Yet he preached "Christ crucified".

Question for debate, if all you knew about Jesus was that he "died for your sins" would that be enough for salvation?

If you knew nothing of Jesus teachings, nothing of his vision of right and wrong, would it be enough just to believe that he died for you?

What does conventional, orthodox Christianity teach?
Thiat was the OP TotN...how does your reply relate to any of this?

You in effect, are being dismissive in saying that Jesus may have lived, but did not "die for anyone's sins" I agree, but that is not the point of the OP. The key is this; would it be enough for one's SALVATION to only believe that he died for you, if you knew nothing about his teachings?

If you don't believe that he died for ANYONE's sins, that is fair, but it is not the point of the OP. The OP presumes that salvation is a condition that does exist.

Your opinion does not address the HOW of salvation, (Jesus teachings or death) and only questions the premise.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #45

Post by Peds nurse »

[Replying to Elijah John]

Hey Mr. EJ!

There is a difference between knowing and believing. there are people on this forum that know Jesus died for our sins, but they don't believe it!

When we believe something so profound it changes us. It changed Paul's behavior, so much that he stopped persecuting Christians. We cannot know Christ so intimately and not be changed.

Elijah John
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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #46

Post by Elijah John »

Peds nurse wrote: [Replying to Elijah John]

Hey Mr. EJ!

There is a difference between knowing and believing. there are people on this forum that know Jesus died for our sins, but they don't believe it!

When we believe something so profound it changes us. It changed Paul's behavior, so much that he stopped persecuting Christians. We cannot know Christ so intimately and not be changed.
Hi PN...I agree with the distinction you make regarding what it means to believe, (knowledge or trust in) but what do you think saves, Jesus death and resurrection, or his teachings to love and obey YHVH? (and our fellow humans)

If one was unfamiliar with his teachings, say, if the one never read the Gospels but only the letters of Paul, would that be enough? To only believe Paul's theology about Jesus death and resurrection?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Hamsaka
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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #47

Post by Hamsaka »

Volbrigade wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]


Without the Resurrection, the Crucifixion is just the execution of a radical Jewish rabbi.
Why is this not a reasonable conclusion, based upon the sheer unlikelihood of a person being killed, then rising from the dead?

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Tired of the Nonsense
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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #48

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

Elijah John wrote:
Elijah John wrote: It is said that the apostle Paul never met Jesus in the flesh, only in a vision.

Yet he preached "Christ crucified".

Question for debate, if all you knew about Jesus was that he "died for your sins" would that be enough for salvation?

If you knew nothing of Jesus teachings, nothing of his vision of right and wrong, would it be enough just to believe that he died for you?

What does conventional, orthodox Christianity teach?
Thiat was the OP TotN...how does your reply relate to any of this?

You in effect, are being dismissive in saying that Jesus may have lived, but did not "die for anyone's sins" I agree, but that is not the point of the OP. The key is this; would it be enough for one's SALVATION to only believe that he died for you, if you knew nothing about his teachings?

If you don't believe that he died for ANYONE's sins, that is fair, but it is not the point of the OP. The OP presumes that salvation is a condition that does exist.

Your opinion does not address the HOW of salvation, (Jesus teachings or death) and only questions the premise.
"if all you knew about Jesus was that he "died for your sins" would that be enough for salvation?"

This quote, taken directly from the OP, was right in my response. How can it be concluded by anyone that I did not directly address the OP? I directly responded to it. I don't always like or agree with the responses that I get back either. But I don't question anyone's right to submit them.

I believe that it is reasonably well established that non believer's do not acknowledge or accept that anyone has died for us. If it was your intention that non believers should be not be expected, or not allowed, to respond to the question you submitted, then I submit to you strongly that you placed his topic in the wrong sub- forum. Because naturally non believers will feel free to respond to such a topic in the Christianity and Apologetic's sub-forum.
Image "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." -- Albert Einstein -- Written in 1954 to Jewish philosopher Erik Gutkind.

Elijah John
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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #49

Post by Elijah John »

Tired of the Nonsense wrote:
Elijah John wrote:
Elijah John wrote: It is said that the apostle Paul never met Jesus in the flesh, only in a vision.

Yet he preached "Christ crucified".

Question for debate, if all you knew about Jesus was that he "died for your sins" would that be enough for salvation?

If you knew nothing of Jesus teachings, nothing of his vision of right and wrong, would it be enough just to believe that he died for you?

What does conventional, orthodox Christianity teach?
Thiat was the OP TotN...how does your reply relate to any of this?

You in effect, are being dismissive in saying that Jesus may have lived, but did not "die for anyone's sins" I agree, but that is not the point of the OP. The key is this; would it be enough for one's SALVATION to only believe that he died for you, if you knew nothing about his teachings?

If you don't believe that he died for ANYONE's sins, that is fair, but it is not the point of the OP. The OP presumes that salvation is a condition that does exist.

Your opinion does not address the HOW of salvation, (Jesus teachings or death) and only questions the premise.
"if all you knew about Jesus was that he "died for your sins" would that be enough for salvation?"

This quote, taken directly from the OP, was right in my response. How can it be concluded by anyone that I did not directly address the OP? I directly responded to it. I don't always like or agree with the responses that I get back either. But I don't question anyone's right to submit them.

I believe that it is reasonably well established that non believer's do not acknowledge or accept that anyone has died for us. If it was your intention that non believers should be not be expected, or not allowed, to respond to the question you submitted, then I submit to you strongly that you placed his topic in the wrong sub- forum. Because naturally non believers will feel free to respond to such a topic in the Christianity and Apologetic's sub-forum.
Oh no you don't. I NEVER have indicated non-believers are not welcome to post on this or any other thread.

And I have NEVER indicated that I do not welcome disagreements, as long as they are pertinent to the question, OP/topic.

Again, there are many intelligent, informed and conversant non-believers who have no trouble making a theistic argument, on one side or the other. Adopting a position for the sake of argument only. They can easily argue which of two given, but contrary theistic positions is more Biblical or more reasonable, without themselves being Theists~

Read Danmark or Zzyzx's posts for examples of this. Or Ancient of Years.

They know how to participate without being dismissive or derailing, and posts like theirs are always welcome.

Dismissing the OP is not addressing the OP. Stating words to the effect of "none of this is true, so none of it matters" is derailing and dismissive.

Else, do you think every thread here should be about the supposed absurdity of belief?
Last edited by Elijah John on Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Elijah John
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Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #50

Post by Elijah John »

Hamsaka wrote:
Volbrigade wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]


Without the Resurrection, the Crucifixion is just the execution of a radical Jewish rabbi.
Why is this not a reasonable conclusion, based upon the sheer unlikelihood of a person being killed, then rising from the dead?
It is a reasonable conclusion, and one that I agree with, but it is not the point of the OP.

This is addressed to all.

OK, to spell it out, ASSUMING THAT SALVATION IS A REALITY, AND THAT THERE IS A GOD, AND THAT JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD...what is needed for salvation, knowlege of Paul's theology of "Christ Crucified" atonement, or knowledge of Jesus teachings as well?

The position of "none of this is true so none of this matters" is dismissive and off topic.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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