Was Jesus' death necessary? If so, why?

[Justin108]

Was Jesus' death necessary? In what way did Jesus' death/sacrifice benefit humanity? Could God not achieve what he intended without Jesus dying?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 38 by Redhawk]

(2) No human court allows for forgiveness. When a human law is broken a man must pay the penalty. There is no forgiveness.

Factually incorrect. The United States has a thing called a pardon, whereby someone is not sentenced to prison time (or is released from prison) by a state governor or the President. Obama for example, at the end of his term, pardoned Chelsea Manning, who had been sentenced to 35 years. Manning will be released in just a few months.
Technically, the person who receives the pardon is considered guilty of the crime (President Ford carried in his wallet an excerpt from a Supreme Court ruling that said this, after he pardoned Nixon).
Note that no-one else is accepted into prison in the pardoned person's place, nor is there a call for a death. If a governor or a president issues a pardon to someone on death row, no-one else is executed in their place.

What would that accomplish?

[Monta]

Another Man was needed to take it upn himself to restore the path.

Why? How exactly does the death of a man restore a path? What's the logic in this process?

Divine law is that nothing unclean shall enter heaven - the pure state,
God's dwelling place.

Jesus was sinless and was taken up to heaven and as he said 'I am the door'
through him we also can enter.

[Justin108]

Another Man was needed to take it upn himself to restore the path.

Why? How exactly does the death of a man restore a path? What's the logic in this process?

Divine law is that nothing unclean shall enter heaven - the pure state,
God's dwelling place.

Okay explain to me why God couldn't make people clean/pure without killing Jesus?

[Clownboat]

Was Jesus' death necessary? In what way did Jesus' death/sacrifice benefit humanity? Could God not achieve what he intended without Jesus dying?

Man's wicked ways have blocked the path to God and the influx from heaven could not reach him (man).
Another Man was needed to take it upn himself to restore the path.
Divine truth, the Word in human form as Jesus took it upon Himself to resrore the path back to God providing open communicaten - we can approach God directly.

Through the humanity of Christ we approach the Divinity.

Yes, yes... most of us have heard this in church.

I ask you to use your own mind for a moment. Forget your church training. Don't you find it illogical that a god that can create the universe with words has these limitations you put on your god concept?

"He can create universes with words, but man's wicked ways are able to block the patch to him".

It's like 'having your cake and eating it too'. You can't have both.

[Clownboat]

Was Jesus' death necessary? In what way did Jesus' death/sacrifice benefit humanity? Could God not achieve what he intended without Jesus dying?

"The soul that sins shall die." - Ezekiel 18:20

This is God's law. It must be obeyed. We all must obey human laws and we must all obey God's law. The mystery of the death of Jesus Christ can only be answered by looking into the law.

Jesus' death was necessary. Since God is not willing that all men should die for their sins, He died instead of us as punishment for sin. HIS death was a sacrifice for sin.

In the book of Exodus the pattern of sacrifice that God declares is revealed. Hebrews had been slaves in Egypt for four hundred years. To release them from slavery, God destroyed the nation of Egypt(1). The final plague was death of all first born. To avoid this judgment God said to paint the blood of a lamb on the door posts and lintel of a house. Those that accepted the blood were saved from death. Those that did not apply the blood died.

In what way did Jesus' death benefit humanity? We are forgiven of breaking God's law. Jesus' death paid the penalty of breaking God's law.(2)

Could God achieve what He intended without Jesus' death?

The top post quoted above does not state or imply what God's intent might be, therefore it is not possible to address this question directly. It is poorly worded. The Bible clearly states that sin against God will not be tolerated or excused. The penalty for sin is death. Since blood is the life of a man, God requires blood to be shed as a payment for sin. BUT God is not willing to cast all men into godless eternity and has provided payment for sin in the man Jesus. All those who accept Christ into their lives thus accept the sacrifice HE made upon the cross.

Those that don't - have rejected God's only provision for salvation from judgment and are subject to judgment of death which is upon them.

MY Question would therefore be to ask - Since God demands death for sin, exactly how would forgiveness be arranged without payment of this penalty? All human cultures have laws, the violation of which is a penalty of prison or death. There is no exception and there is no forgiveness in the courts of man. But there IS forgiveness in the court of Heaven because Jesus can be accepted as payment for breaking God's law instead of us.

How would you arrange it? The law is the law. How would you pay for it without Christ's death?

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
(1) In a similar fashion, God destroyed the United States for the sin of slavery during our civil war. Slavery is a sin which is punishable by judgment of a nation.

(2) No human court allows for forgiveness. When a human law is broken a man must pay the penalty. There is no forgiveness.

What happens to this story when we realize that the Exodus story as told in the Bible didn't happen?

Don't your words become empty? You might as well be referring to Humpty Dumpty falling off a wall, another story that cannot be shown to be true, nor realistic.

[rikuoamero]

Another Man was needed to take it upn himself to restore the path.

Why? How exactly does the death of a man restore a path? What's the logic in this process?

Divine law is that nothing unclean shall enter heaven - the pure state,
God's dwelling place.

Okay explain to me why God couldn't make people clean/pure without killing Jesus?

The Old Testament says that (going from memory here) at least two people were lifted bodily into heaven: the great-grandfather of Noah (I think his name is Enoch) and the prophet Elijah.
No mention is made of them being made clean, so either they were made clean without Jesus having to die, or their cleanliness or lack thereof was not a factor in them being able to enter heaven.
Or that these parts of the OT are pure fiction, which casts doubt on other parts of the Bible.
There's also, in Catholicism, the Immaculate Conception of Mary the mother of Jesus. Jesus is supposedly without sin, but he couldn't have been born of a sinful mother...right? So the Church says that Mary was made pure by the grace of God while she was in her mother's womb. Just ignore the whole can of worms this creates.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 44 by Clownboat]

I ask you to use your own mind for a moment. Forget your church training. Don't you find it illogical that a god that can create the universe with words has these limitations you put on your god concept?

"He can create universes with words, but man's wicked ways are able to block the patch to him".//

Where do the wicked words come from?

Why would a man full of hatred and murder and theft and abuse want to go to heaven when its amospheres of God's Love and Lightwould choke him?

Swedenborg had experienced those who in the world of spirits longed for heaven and when admitted cried to escape.
We only end up where our heart already is.

[Redhawk]

[Replying to post 38 by Redhawk]

(2) No human court allows for forgiveness. When a human law is broken a man must pay the penalty. There is no forgiveness.

Factually incorrect. The United States has a thing called a pardon, whereby someone is not sentenced to prison time (or is released from prison) by a state governor or the President. Obama for example, at the end of his term, pardoned Chelsea Manning, who had been sentenced to 35 years. Manning will be released in just a few months.
Technically, the person who receives the pardon is considered guilty of the crime (President Ford carried in his wallet an excerpt from a Supreme Court ruling that said this, after he pardoned Nixon).
Note that no-one else is accepted into prison in the pardoned person's place, nor is there a call for a death. If a governor or a president issues a pardon to someone on death row, no-one else is executed in their place.

What would that accomplish?

Statistically incorrect. Although US law provides for a pardon, it is rarely used. Rarely means not very much if at all.

Chelsea Manning was pardoned. Nice. How many others who languish in prison either because they are guilty or innocent are likewise pardoned? How many? Can you tell me? I can tell you - all of them. All of them, 100% of them !!!

Your use of pardon does not negate my point. Human law does not allow for forgiveness. God's law does. Millions of believers have been forgiven for their sins against God and I'm talking about all of them being guilty. All are guilty.

Christ provides for forgiveness for untold millions of people.

You've got Chelsea Manning.

Do you not see my point?

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Justin108]

Christ provides for forgiveness for untold millions of people.

You've got Chelsea Manning.

Do you not see my point?

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Obama managed to forgive Chelsea Manning without sacrificing anyone. Why couldn't God do the same?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 48 by Redhawk]

Statistically incorrect. Although US law provides for a pardon, it is rarely used. Rarely means not very much if at all.

Reread what you wrote, Redhawk.
No human court allows for forgiveness. When a human law is broken a man must pay the penalty. There is no forgiveness.

You said that the HUMAN COURT does not ALLOW for forgiveness, as in there is no mechanism in place for forgiveness. To which I pointed out that yes it does, there is a system called pardons.
You were incorrect. The amount of times a pardon is done has no bearing whatsoever as to whether or not the human court system (in the US at least, I'm unsure of other nations) allows for forgiveness at all.

How many others who languish in prison either because they are guilty or innocent are likewise pardoned? How many? Can you tell me? I can tell you - all of them. All of them, 100% of them !!!

I might as well be pedantic - if there is even a single pardon, then it cannot be said that 100% of people stay in prison.

Your use of pardon does not negate my point. Human law does not allow for forgiveness.

You acknowledge that Chelsea Manning was pardoned, not paying the penalty she was sentenced to (35 years), and yet...still repeat that human law does not allow for forgiveness?
You quite literally do not make sense here.

Christ provides for forgiveness for untold millions of people.

You've got Chelsea Manning.

Do you not see my point?

Chelsea Manning is not the sole beneficiary of a pardon in the US.
The following link details the number of people who received a presidential pardon in the US since its formation. Note that the table does not count people pardoned by state governors.
http://www.infoplease.com/us/government ... esent.html
In case you don't want to add them all up yourself, that's 28,361 pardons. That we know for a fact happened, versus your standard Christian claim that Christ 'provides for forgiveness for untold millions of people' which is an article of faith and not something proven or known for a fact.

God's law does. Millions of believers have been forgiven for their sins against God and I'm talking about all of them being guilty. All are guilty.

Even if this were true, compare that to human courts, where people like Chelsea Manning, who were found guilty by courts, are released from prison with no-one having to die or serve their time in their place.
They're just released, with a stroke of the president's pen.
Funny how God can't do that. Jesus HAS to die for it to happen for...reasons.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

A not so subtle admission of preaching, which is a violation of forum guidelines?