A Major Conflict in Jesus Historicity

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Clownboat
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Re: A Major Conflict in Jesus Historicity

Post #101

Post by Clownboat »

Completely false. Thank goodness we have the letters of good ole' Paul, who said that he "received" the famous creed (1Cor 15:3-8), which is that Jesus died, was buried, raised, and seen post-mortem by his followers.
Put yourself in Paul's shoes, or Joseph Smith's shoes for another example.

If you were inventing a religion, for which you should agree that man has invented thousands of, would you not also lie about your source? Especially when Paul is making these claims while claiming he is their leader of this new religion. How convenient! Why is this one example out of thousands of invented religions not also invented?

Matt 23:9 Jesus is claimed to have said: And call no man your father on earth, for you have one father, who is in heaven.
1st Cor 4:15 Now listen to Paul: For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Matt 23:10 Neither be called leaders, for you have one leader, the Christ.
1st Cor 4:15 Now listen to Paul: For though you have countless leaders in Christ.

What I want to know is how is Paul any different then a Joseph Smith?
- Paul: No, seriously, I had a vision and I am your leader.
- J Smith: No, seriously, I found golden plates and magic glasses and I'm your leader.

It seems to me that there is an incredible need for gullibility to believe either of these claims, especially when these claims are putting the people making said claims in to a position of power.
You can build a man a fire and he will be warm for a day, or you can set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible being’s wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

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Post #102

Post by For_The_Kingdom »

Danmark wrote: :?:
How do you twist questioning a source into "hating Jesus?"
I wasn't saying hating Jesus, but rather, hating on Jesus. You do understand the difference, right?
Danmark wrote: Do you use the same method you use to turn 2000 years into "soon." :P
If the premise (above) is false, then the conclusion that follows is also false.

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Post #103

Post by Danmark »

For_The_Kingdom wrote:
Danmark wrote: According to you, a generation lasts more than 2000 years and some of the disciples are still alive.
Again, depends on how "generation" should be used in this context.
Danmark wrote: "Soon" must mean "forever" for some Christian apologists who absolutely ignore the Bible whenever it is convenient for their theology.
Actually, for us Christians in general, "soon" means "Christ will return whenever he damn well pleases". Unlike Jehovah's Witnesses, true Christians don't set time tables, we will just be ready whenever he gets here.
Danmark wrote: However, when it comes to magic miracles and the supernatural the plain meaning of words is accepted.
It all depends on context.
The context is very clear and flows directly from John the Baptist.
"God, very soon, imminently, any moment, is going to descend to eradicate the evil of this world in a sort of an apocalyptic consummation...."
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontlin ... /john.html

So both the historical context as well as the words of Jesus are clear. The end is coming NOW, within their lifetimes. Everything about the context suggests the imminence of the event.
He warned them the tribulation was coming soon, that they wouldn't know when, but they needed to get ready and that it would come within the lifetime of some he was talking to. What 'context' suggests he was talking about 2000 or more years later when he said this? Everything he said about the tribulation and his 2d coming is about imminence. That's how Paul and his followers understood it. Then around 100 CE when the church realizes it ain't happening they come up with a very different message in 2 Thessalonians, very likely a forgery since it says the opposite of what Paul wrote earlier. 2d Thessalonians is evidence the church accepted the plain meaning of the words. They were embarrassed and revised.

This same pattern has been going on for 2000 years, starting with the gospels. Apocalypse predicted, nothing happens, apocalypse revised.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_d ... tic_events

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Re: A Major Conflict in Jesus Historicity

Post #104

Post by For_The_Kingdom »

Jagella wrote:
Thanks, but I should point out that it's not like it used to be. Four centuries ago you would have tortured me and burned me at the stake. Oh, "give us that old-time religion!"
And four centuries ago I would have been wrong.
Jagella wrote: True, but accepting the evidence I've seen for a historical Jesus would make me a dope.
I feel the same way about the evidence for evolution (lack thereof).
Jagella wrote: I don't like Ehrman. Among other things he libeled DM Murdock. I don't generally make a practice of accepting the "expertise" of liars.
So, now he is a liar? Gotcha.
Jagella wrote:
You contradicted yourself in two sentences. Care to do it in one?
Keyword: "Always". Reading comprehension is a fundamental element to....reading.
Jagella wrote: Right, and you believe Ehrman saying Jesus existed and reject Ehrman when he says the gospels misquote Jesus.
You do acknowledge the concept of a person being right in some aspects, and wrong in others, correct?
Jagella wrote: If anybody believes this kind of nonsense, then they are in dire need of a brain transplant.
^My thoughts on those who believe in evolution. Couldn't have said it better myself.

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Re: A Major Conflict in Jesus Historicity

Post #105

Post by Clownboat »

Danmark wrote:
For_The_Kingdom wrote:
Jagella wrote: In any case, we don't know their sources and cannot with confidence say that their mentioning Jesus is independent corroboration.
Man, the hate on Jesus is real.
:?:
How do you twist questioning a source into "hating Jesus?"
Do you use the same method you use to turn 2000 years into "soon." :P
The same part of a humans brain lights up when discussing a persons favorite football team (for example) as when discussing a persons favorite religion.

We know how emotional some people can get when it comes to sports, so it is no surprise there are people equally emotional about the religion they decided to believe in.

How dare you root for Baltimore over the Steelers!
How dare you question my favorite god concept!
You can build a man a fire and he will be warm for a day, or you can set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible being’s wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

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Post #106

Post by tam »

Danmark wrote:
For_The_Kingdom wrote:
Danmark wrote: According to you, a generation lasts more than 2000 years and some of the disciples are still alive.
Again, depends on how "generation" should be used in this context.
Danmark wrote: "Soon" must mean "forever" for some Christian apologists who absolutely ignore the Bible whenever it is convenient for their theology.
Actually, for us Christians in general, "soon" means "Christ will return whenever he damn well pleases". Unlike Jehovah's Witnesses, true Christians don't set time tables, we will just be ready whenever he gets here.
Danmark wrote: However, when it comes to magic miracles and the supernatural the plain meaning of words is accepted.
It all depends on context.
The context is very clear and flows directly from John the Baptist.
"God, very soon, imminently, any moment, is going to descend to eradicate the evil of this world in a sort of an apocalyptic consummation...."
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontlin ... /john.html
Everyone knows that is not a direct (or even an indirect) quote from John the Baptist, right?

John baptized people for repentance of sins; bore witness to and prepared the way for Christ. He didn't preach whatever "that" is supposed to be, in quotations marks from the article above (emphasized by the fact that the author does not quote anything written as support for their claim.)


Just sayin'


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your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: A Major Conflict in Jesus Historicity

Post #107

Post by tam »

[Replying to post 80 by Danmark]

Generation

Here is a link to the word "genea" being used, meaning generation:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 1074&t=KJV

Look at how many different ways that word is used and what it means:

I. fathered, birth, nativity

II. that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family

A- the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy

B- metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character

i- esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation

III. the whole multitude of men living at the same time

IV. an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

It continues, and you can look at them all. But please look at the root word as well (and even the root word of that) because it emphasizes the meaning of generation as being those begotten, made, having the same father, being the same kind, etc. And all of that describes the Body of Christ, whom he has begotten (made sons) of God.


So Christ said, 'this generation will not pass away before all these things have passed'. Meaning, the generation of people who have been begotten; made sons (been generated) by Christ by means of holy spirit (the blood/breath/seed of God).


THIS is the generation that will not pass away before all these things happen. In other words, this generation will still BE here when all of these things happen. This generation will not all have died off (physically or spiritually). Not every single one of us will be alive, but some of us will indeed be here when all these things happen and when Christ returns. (paul corroborates this in his "'we who are still alive' at the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have died...")



Did everyone there understand that? Perhaps not. Not everyone understands that even now. Regardless, the disciples often did not understand something Christ taught them, not until after (sometimes immediately afterward, and sometimes years afterward).


And there are passages in the Psalms (and other places) that speak to the upright generation (using generation as in a kind of people) and the righteous generation; and even the wicked generation (again a description of a kind).


Peace to you and yours,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post #108

Post by Danmark »

tam wrote:
Danmark wrote: The context is very clear and flows directly from John the Baptist.
"God, very soon, imminently, any moment, is going to descend to eradicate the evil of this world in a sort of an apocalyptic consummation...."
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontlin ... /john.html
Everyone knows that is not a direct (or even an indirect) quote from John the Baptist, right?
I hope so since I included the reference to the quote. Since some here refuse to read their own Bibles in a straightforward, common sense way, I thought I'd share the view of an expert:
"John Dominic Crossan has written eighteen books on the historical Jesus and earliest Christianity. Three of his most recent books, The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant (1991), Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography (1994), and Who Killed Jesus: Exposing the Roots of Anti-Semitism in the Gospel Story of the Death of Jesus (1995), have been national religious bestsellers for a combined total of nineteen months. In March, Harper San Francisco will publish Crossan's next book, The Birth of Christianity. Crossan joined the faculty of DePaul University, Chicago, in 1969 and remained there until 1995. He was co-chair of the Jesus Seminar from 1985 to 1996 as it met in twice-annual meetings to debate the historicity of the life of Jesus in the Gospels. Crossan received a doctorate of divinity from Maynooth College, Ireland, in 1959, and did post-doctoral research at the Pontifical Biblical Institute in Rome from 1959 to1961 and at the Ecole Biblique in Jerusalem from 1965 to 1967."
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontlin ... ml#crossan

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Post #109

Post by tam »

Danmark wrote:
tam wrote:
Danmark wrote: The context is very clear and flows directly from John the Baptist.
"God, very soon, imminently, any moment, is going to descend to eradicate the evil of this world in a sort of an apocalyptic consummation...."
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontlin ... /john.html
Everyone knows that is not a direct (or even an indirect) quote from John the Baptist, right?
I hope so since I included the reference to the quote. Since some here refuse to read their own Bibles in a straightforward, common sense way, I thought I'd share the view of an expert:
"John Dominic Crossan has written eighteen books on the historical Jesus and earliest Christianity. Three of his most recent books, The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant (1991), Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography (1994), and Who Killed Jesus: Exposing the Roots of Anti-Semitism in the Gospel Story of the Death of Jesus (1995), have been national religious bestsellers for a combined total of nineteen months. In March, Harper San Francisco will publish Crossan's next book, The Birth of Christianity. Crossan joined the faculty of DePaul University, Chicago, in 1969 and remained there until 1995. He was co-chair of the Jesus Seminar from 1985 to 1996 as it met in twice-annual meetings to debate the historicity of the life of Jesus in the Gospels. Crossan received a doctorate of divinity from Maynooth College, Ireland, in 1959, and did post-doctoral research at the Pontifical Biblical Institute in Rome from 1959 to1961 and at the Ecole Biblique in Jerusalem from 1965 to 1967."
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontlin ... ml#crossan

Okay. (But when a person such as the expert in your article, attributes certain words to a someone else, and then places those words within quotation marks, that tends to be seen as an actual quote. Rather than as someone's interpretation. Just making sure it was clear to everyone that John the Baptist did not say those things.)

I'm not sure, however, how much weight this expert's testimony carries, since John (the Baptist) did not teach those things that John (the expert) attributes to him.


Peace again to you!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: A Major Conflict in Jesus Historicity

Post #110

Post by Danmark »

tam wrote: [Replying to post 80 by Danmark]

Generation

Here is a link to the word "genea" being used, meaning generation:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 1074&t=KJV

Look at how many different ways that word is used and what it means:

I. fathered, birth, nativity

II. that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family

A- the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy

B- metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character

i- esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation

III. the whole multitude of men living at the same time

IV. an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years
Why pick a meaning that does not agree with what Jesus said in Matthew 16:28?
"Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.� That is consistent with a generation being less than 40 years, or according to your source, 30-33.

There are references all thru the Bible that reinforce Jesus was talking to "this generation" standing right in front of him. They include verses which show the early church understood Jesus to have said the same thing:

Men of Galilee,� they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.�
— Acts 1:11

The end of all things is near.
— 1 Peter 4:7

You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. … The Judge is standing at the door!
— James 5:8-9


And there are others in the gospels:
But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, “Even the dust of your town we wipe from our feet as a warning to you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God has come near.� I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.
— Luke 10:10-12

“The time has come,� he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!�
— Mark 1:15

As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’
— Mat. 10:7

Jesus went on to say, “In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.�
— John 16:16


There is ample reason C.S. Lewis wrote:

“Say what you like,� we shall be told, “the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else.� It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible."
— C.S. Lewis, The World’s Last Night: And Other Essays

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