Ten Commandments

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nobspeople
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Ten Commandments

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

Ask 1000 christians "What, exactly, counts as 'a sin'?" and you'd probably get various answers. Most, somewhere in the conversation, would likely visit the Ten Commandments. Fair enough, I suppose. But are there other things that aren't included in the Ten Commandments - outliers - that are also sin?
Some say it's a sin to smoke, drink, do drugs, curse. Some say those are OK so long as you're not over indulging in them.
Some say it's a sin to kill another human being, while others say it's not if it pertains to justice and or self defense.
Some say it's a sin to blaspheme, yet many can't agree on what that is, exactly.
Some say it's a sin to disobey god, while others say it's not a sin, just not a good idea.
Some say it's a sin to be gay, while others say it's not, but the act it, while others still say being gay is not an issue.
Some say it's a sin to have sex before marriage, while others say it's not, while others still say having sex is a union and thus, dictates being married.

It seems that, if sin separates one from god, it's an important enough concept in which everyone should be able to fully grasp.

So, assuming violating the 10 CMDMTS is a sin, are there other things that are sinful as well? If yes, what are they, exactly? If not, is it safe to say obeying the 10 CMDMTS is a sure-fire way to avoid sin?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Ten Commandments

Post #81

Post by 1213 »

POI wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:15 pm You are rationalizing. If someone asks you a direct question, and you avoid the answer, you are not being honest. You are instead lying by omission.

Does a righteous person avoid direct questions or change the subject? If not, then YOU are not righteous ;)
...
Firstly, I don't claim to be righteous. I am probably not righteous. However, I don't think being righteous means one must say everything he knows, or that he can't change the subject. I don’t think there is anything in the Bible that supports your view in this, sorry.

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Re: Ten Commandments

Post #82

Post by POI »

1213 wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 2:39 pm
POI wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:15 pm You are rationalizing. If someone asks you a direct question, and you avoid the answer, you are not being honest. You are instead lying by omission.

Does a righteous person avoid direct questions or change the subject? If not, then YOU are not righteous ;)
...
Firstly, I don't claim to be righteous. I am probably not righteous.
According to your interpretation, no one could be righteous. You state that a righteous person cannot lie. This is virtually impossible; unless you wish to die young and alone.
1213 wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 2:39 pm However, I don't think being righteous means one must say everything he knows, or that he can't change the subject. I don’t think there is anything in the Bible that supports your view in this, sorry.
Sure there is....

Proverbs 14:5 "An honest witness does not deceive, but a false witness pours out lies."

Again, going back to the surprise party analogy... Your friend's wife asks you, point-blank, "is my husband throwing me a surprise birthday party?" Do you tell the truth and ruin the surprise, or, keep the secret (by way of deception)?

Speaking of the 'righteous', they all appear to hate what is false (i.e.) Proverbs 13:5 "The righteous hate what is false, but the wicked make themselves a stench and bring shame on themselves."

So if your friend's wife asks you follow up questions, about the suspected party, do you continue to lie (and keep the surprise), or, do you immediately tell the truth?

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Re: Ten Commandments

Post #83

Post by nobspeople »

POI wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:21 pm
1213 wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 2:39 pm
POI wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:15 pm You are rationalizing. If someone asks you a direct question, and you avoid the answer, you are not being honest. You are instead lying by omission.

Does a righteous person avoid direct questions or change the subject? If not, then YOU are not righteous ;)
...
Firstly, I don't claim to be righteous. I am probably not righteous.
According to your interpretation, no one could be righteous. You state that a righteous person cannot lie. This is virtually impossible; unless you wish to die young and alone.
1213 wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 2:39 pm However, I don't think being righteous means one must say everything he knows, or that he can't change the subject. I don’t think there is anything in the Bible that supports your view in this, sorry.
Sure there is....

Proverbs 14:5 "An honest witness does not deceive, but a false witness pours out lies."

Again, going back to the surprise party analogy... Your friend's wife asks you, point-blank, "is my husband throwing me a surprise birthday party?" Do you tell the truth and ruin the surprise, or, keep the secret (by way of deception)?

Speaking of the 'righteous', they all appear to hate what is false (i.e.) Proverbs 13:5 "The righteous hate what is false, but the wicked make themselves a stench and bring shame on themselves."

So if your friend's wife asks you follow up questions, about the suspected party, do you continue to lie (and keep the surprise), or, do you immediately tell the truth?
I've been told by some others that, in this example, the 'lie' isn't really a like: you lie but it's for 'the greater good'. They likened it to actors: you know Matt Smith isn't an intergalactic alien with a special Tardis, but he 'pretends' to be one.
Not saying that made a whole lotta' sense, but that's what I've been told before.
I suspect in your proposed situation, this thinking may apply. At which point we must ask 'what is a lie that's 'big enough' to be a sin?
Shades of grey I suspect. Which I find ironic at times; seems so many times these 'shades of grey' are called upon by some to fit their personal needs while they reject it on others and or when it doesn't fit their agenda.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Ten Commandments

Post #84

Post by 1213 »

POI wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:21 pm
1213 wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 2:39 pm However, I don't think being righteous means one must say everything he knows, or that he can't change the subject. I don’t think there is anything in the Bible that supports your view in this, sorry.
Sure there is....
Proverbs 14:5 "An honest witness does not deceive, but a false witness pours out lies."

According to your interpretation, no one could be righteous. You state that a righteous person cannot lie. This is virtually impossible; unless you wish to die young and alone.
Sorry, I don’t think that means person must say everything he knows. And my interpretation is not that no one could be righteous. I believe person can be righteous and not lie.
POI wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:21 pm…..So if your friend's wife asks you follow up questions, about the suspected party, do you continue to lie (and keep the surprise), or, do you immediately tell the truth?
I can tell the truth and say, “Sorry, I would not speak about it, even if I would know something :)”.

But, do I understand correctly, you are a liar?

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Re: Ten Commandments

Post #85

Post by POI »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:04 am
POI wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:21 pm
1213 wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 2:39 pm
POI wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:15 pm You are rationalizing. If someone asks you a direct question, and you avoid the answer, you are not being honest. You are instead lying by omission.

Does a righteous person avoid direct questions or change the subject? If not, then YOU are not righteous ;)
...
Firstly, I don't claim to be righteous. I am probably not righteous.
According to your interpretation, no one could be righteous. You state that a righteous person cannot lie. This is virtually impossible; unless you wish to die young and alone.
1213 wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 2:39 pm However, I don't think being righteous means one must say everything he knows, or that he can't change the subject. I don’t think there is anything in the Bible that supports your view in this, sorry.
Sure there is....

Proverbs 14:5 "An honest witness does not deceive, but a false witness pours out lies."

Again, going back to the surprise party analogy... Your friend's wife asks you, point-blank, "is my husband throwing me a surprise birthday party?" Do you tell the truth and ruin the surprise, or, keep the secret (by way of deception)?

Speaking of the 'righteous', they all appear to hate what is false (i.e.) Proverbs 13:5 "The righteous hate what is false, but the wicked make themselves a stench and bring shame on themselves."

So if your friend's wife asks you follow up questions, about the suspected party, do you continue to lie (and keep the surprise), or, do you immediately tell the truth?
I've been told by some others that, in this example, the 'lie' isn't really a like: you lie but it's for 'the greater good'. They likened it to actors: you know Matt Smith isn't an intergalactic alien with a special Tardis, but he 'pretends' to be one.
Not saying that made a whole lotta' sense, but that's what I've been told before.
I suspect in your proposed situation, this thinking may apply. At which point we must ask 'what is a lie that's 'big enough' to be a sin?
Shades of grey I suspect. Which I find ironic at times; seems so many times these 'shades of grey' are called upon by some to fit their personal needs while they reject it on others and or when it doesn't fit their agenda.
Thank you for further solidifying my point(s). This is exactly what I conveyed to 1213 many responses ago... I asked... (Paraphrased):

Is there such a thing as a 'good lie'? Is lying sometimes warranted to protect against a 'greater' sin?


Much rationalization and/or much subjective opinion, about 'morals', must then take place, to retain such a view :)

I will keep responding to 1213, and watch as (s)he digs him/her self deeper into a hole :)

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Re: Ten Commandments

Post #86

Post by POI »

1213 wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:29 pm
POI wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:21 pm
1213 wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 2:39 pm However, I don't think being righteous means one must say everything he knows, or that he can't change the subject. I don’t think there is anything in the Bible that supports your view in this, sorry.
Sure there is....
Proverbs 14:5 "An honest witness does not deceive, but a false witness pours out lies."

According to your interpretation, no one could be righteous. You state that a righteous person cannot lie. This is virtually impossible; unless you wish to die young and alone.
Sorry, I don’t think that means person must say everything he knows. And my interpretation is not that no one could be righteous. I believe person can be righteous and not lie.
I will reiterate my last statement... If you are asked point-blank, do you know about the party.... If you know the party is being planned, and you actively choose not to answer, you are being deceptive.

Deceptive - "giving an appearance or impression different from the true one; misleading"

You are continuing to rationalize. Is being deceptive, in this case, still righteous?

Case/point: In U.S. court, you are asked to "tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." If you opt not to answer a direct question, in which you know the answer, you are in violation of truth ;)
1213 wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:29 pm
POI wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:21 pm…..So if your friend's wife asks you follow up questions, about the suspected party, do you continue to lie (and keep the surprise), or, do you immediately tell the truth?
I can tell the truth and say, “Sorry, I would not speak about it, even if I would know something :)”.
Then you are being deceptive. Is this okay with God? Please remember, I already sent you Verse(s) which state God does not like deception ;)
1213 wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:29 pm But, do I understand correctly, you are a liar?
Well, you are asking someone who does not abide by such silly rules. But you do... So, are you a deceptive liar? If you answer no here, then you are again being a deceptive liar :)

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Re: Ten Commandments

Post #87

Post by 1213 »

POI wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:09 pm I will reiterate my last statement... If you are asked point-blank, do you know about the party.... If you know the party is being planned, and you actively choose not to answer, you are being deceptive.

Deceptive - "giving an appearance or impression different from the true one; misleading"

You are continuing to rationalize. Is being deceptive, in this case, still righteous?

Case/point: In U.S. court, you are asked to "tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." If you opt not to answer a direct question, in which you know the answer, you are in violation of truth ;)...
If I don’t say anything, it is not deceiving, because it does not give any information that could give a wrong impression.

And about the court case, are the Fifth and the Fourteenth Amendments revoked?

The Fifth and the Fourteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution provide that no person shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself/ herself. The Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which is part of the Bill of Rights, protects against abuse of government authority in a legal procedure.
https://witnesses.uslegal.com/duty-to-t ... imination/

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Re: Ten Commandments

Post #88

Post by nobspeople »

POI wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:09 pm
1213 wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:29 pm
POI wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:21 pm
1213 wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 2:39 pm However, I don't think being righteous means one must say everything he knows, or that he can't change the subject. I don’t think there is anything in the Bible that supports your view in this, sorry.
Sure there is....
Proverbs 14:5 "An honest witness does not deceive, but a false witness pours out lies."

According to your interpretation, no one could be righteous. You state that a righteous person cannot lie. This is virtually impossible; unless you wish to die young and alone.
Sorry, I don’t think that means person must say everything he knows. And my interpretation is not that no one could be righteous. I believe person can be righteous and not lie.
I will reiterate my last statement... If you are asked point-blank, do you know about the party.... If you know the party is being planned, and you actively choose not to answer, you are being deceptive.

Deceptive - "giving an appearance or impression different from the true one; misleading"

You are continuing to rationalize. Is being deceptive, in this case, still righteous?

Case/point: In U.S. court, you are asked to "tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." If you opt not to answer a direct question, in which you know the answer, you are in violation of truth ;)
1213 wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:29 pm
POI wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:21 pm…..So if your friend's wife asks you follow up questions, about the suspected party, do you continue to lie (and keep the surprise), or, do you immediately tell the truth?
I can tell the truth and say, “Sorry, I would not speak about it, even if I would know something :)”.
Then you are being deceptive. Is this okay with God? Please remember, I already sent you Verse(s) which state God does not like deception ;)
1213 wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:29 pm But, do I understand correctly, you are a liar?
Well, you are asking someone who does not abide by such silly rules. But you do... So, are you a deceptive liar? If you answer no here, then you are again being a deceptive liar :)
I would imagine there's a certain amount of the christian's friend at play here: 'context'. Especially when considering the original text (whatever that may be).
Was it to be inferred that there are some 'less than truthful' responses that are OK or no? Maybe it has to do with the outcome of telling the truth: did you see who shot that man? vs. do you know about my surprise party?, for example. (Depending on who the man is that's shot 8-) ) the shooting is worse than the party (but that may also depend on how bad the party is ;) ). Or, in my case as I was told, the person acting.
If this is true, it opens a whole 'nuther can-o-worms about 'what is bad/worse', who determines what's bad/worse, etc.
Like most, if not all things 'christian', the answer is highly subjective to the text referenced, time it's references, culture and individual.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Ten Commandments

Post #89

Post by POI »

1213 wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:00 am
POI wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:09 pm I will reiterate my last statement... If you are asked point-blank, do you know about the party.... If you know the party is being planned, and you actively choose not to answer, you are being deceptive.

Deceptive - "giving an appearance or impression different from the true one; misleading"

You are continuing to rationalize. Is being deceptive, in this case, still righteous?

Case/point: In U.S. court, you are asked to "tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." If you opt not to answer a direct question, in which you know the answer, you are in violation of truth ;)...
If I don’t say anything, it is not deceiving, because it does not give any information that could give a wrong impression.
If you don't say anything, you have basically told the wife that she IS having a surprise birthday party. Your friend will likely not trust you with earnest secrets any longer. If you know it's a huge surprise, say her 50th, and he has spent a ton of time and money to give her the surprise of her life, I sincerely doubt you would say, "I'm not saying anything", or, not say anything at all when directly asked ;) Doing so will give away the surprise... So please, be forthright in your responses, and stop rationalizing. In this case, you would attempt to throw off the sent, so she does not become more suspicious. This is what a 'good friend' would likely do to preserve the surprise. Being misleading will preserve her future special day.
1213 wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:00 amAnd about the court case, are the Fifth and the Fourteenth Amendments revoked?
It would again depend on the situation, RIGHT? ----> "situational ethics." If you admit this, then you are using your own 'moral compass' to assess a moral situation. But regardless, God would still know you are withholding known information, when directly asked. Is the withholding of this known information always okay with God, or sometimes okay with God, or never okay with God?

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Re: Ten Commandments

Post #90

Post by POI »

nobspeople wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:30 am
POI wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:09 pm
1213 wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:29 pm
POI wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:21 pm
1213 wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 2:39 pm However, I don't think being righteous means one must say everything he knows, or that he can't change the subject. I don’t think there is anything in the Bible that supports your view in this, sorry.
Sure there is....
Proverbs 14:5 "An honest witness does not deceive, but a false witness pours out lies."

According to your interpretation, no one could be righteous. You state that a righteous person cannot lie. This is virtually impossible; unless you wish to die young and alone.
Sorry, I don’t think that means person must say everything he knows. And my interpretation is not that no one could be righteous. I believe person can be righteous and not lie.
I will reiterate my last statement... If you are asked point-blank, do you know about the party.... If you know the party is being planned, and you actively choose not to answer, you are being deceptive.

Deceptive - "giving an appearance or impression different from the true one; misleading"

You are continuing to rationalize. Is being deceptive, in this case, still righteous?

Case/point: In U.S. court, you are asked to "tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." If you opt not to answer a direct question, in which you know the answer, you are in violation of truth ;)
1213 wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:29 pm
POI wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:21 pm…..So if your friend's wife asks you follow up questions, about the suspected party, do you continue to lie (and keep the surprise), or, do you immediately tell the truth?
I can tell the truth and say, “Sorry, I would not speak about it, even if I would know something :)”.
Then you are being deceptive. Is this okay with God? Please remember, I already sent you Verse(s) which state God does not like deception ;)
1213 wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:29 pm But, do I understand correctly, you are a liar?
Well, you are asking someone who does not abide by such silly rules. But you do... So, are you a deceptive liar? If you answer no here, then you are again being a deceptive liar :)
I would imagine there's a certain amount of the christian's friend at play here: 'context'. Especially when considering the original text (whatever that may be).
Was it to be inferred that there are some 'less than truthful' responses that are OK or no? Maybe it has to do with the outcome of telling the truth: did you see who shot that man? vs. do you know about my surprise party?, for example. (Depending on who the man is that's shot 8-) ) the shooting is worse than the party (but that may also depend on how bad the party is ;) ). Or, in my case as I was told, the person acting.
If this is true, it opens a whole 'nuther can-o-worms about 'what is bad/worse', who determines what's bad/worse, etc.
Like most, if not all things 'christian', the answer is highly subjective to the text referenced, time it's references, culture and individual.
I think 1213 realizes the 'gotcha'. If 1213 is asked, point-blank by his best friend's wife, "hey 1213, is my husband throwing me a 50th surprise birthday party?" I sincerely DOUBT 1213's response would be 'radio silence' or "I plead the 5th" or "I'm not going to answer that question." The BIG surprise would be spoiled.

So instead, we are seeing "Christian apologetics 101" at play here. Enjoy the ride :)

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