Does god have morals?

[nobspeople]

Morality is highly subjective to time and geography as well as the individual:
some say stealing is immoral while others make exceptions for what's stolen and the reason;
some say being gay is immoral while others say it's only the act while others say neither is immoral and still others say it's immoral (or at least unacceptable when it's men with men, but not women with women);
at one point, some said it immoral to marry a different race when today, it's mostly seen as a non-issue.
The list continues, but you get the point.

This makes me wonder if god is moral?
The quick answer is either yes (normally said by the faithful because that's what they're supposed to say) or no (mostly by 'the others'). But isn't that judging god's actions by human standards?
What if god has its own moral code, different from humanity's? After all, god didn't think it immoral to wipe out a whole city or drown 99.99% of the population (including babies and women in the middle of giving birth - what did those babies do to you, o god?!?!) as well as almost all living land animals. And god didn't see it immoral to kill various armies in the bible.

For discussion:
Is god, by human standards, moral or no?
Or does god have its own moral code which we can't access?

[nobspeople]

[Replying to tam in post #60]

I should hope not! Have we looked at some of the things that humans consider moral? It changes over time, but still.

True they aren't consistent across time, but god's doesn't seem to be either. The OT god is a grumpy, hell-bent, vengeful thing while the NT god seems to be a lot more 'sugar and spice and everything nice'. Though there are exceptions.

And when it is written "God's ways are higher than our ways", it doesn't mean what some have twisted that into meaning: such as someone saying that 'hell' (eternal conscious torment) is an example of higher morality.

I should hope not. But what the bible 'means' is a lot like morality: its interpretation changes over time and from person to person - even with 'god's insight', it seems.

Religions (supposedly acting morally) have burned 'witches' at the stake (though I am sure the women accused of witchcraft would disagree with the morality of the act.) Even in the bible, it is mentioned that people burn their children in the fire, and that this is something that would NEVER have come from God. (Jeremiah 32:35)

Well, religions are 'unique' and human created, no doubt (though it can be said god is created by man as well, but that's not the topic of this thread). It's interesting how people can see the bible, pick out what god did and didn't say, then lay claim to being correct when hundreds and hundreds of people throughout time have said the bible is 'god's word' or 'god's inspired word'. Again, something interesting but not a thread topic.

God (the God and Father of Christ) is love.

Said no one drowning in the flood. Though it must be said the bible says god is hate
https://www.openbible.info/topics/what_god_hates
Though, I suspect, to be perfect, god has to be all things; love, hate, deceit, honest, slanderous, spiteful, joyous, happy, evil, good, ugly.... the list is endless.

Love also covers over a multitude of sins.

But not all. Many? A great number? Maybe even most? But not all.

[nobspeople]

There appear to be two distinct set of morals in the Bible. There is one represented by Jesus which indicates we should treat others the way we would like to be treated. This is reflected in many other passages including examples set out in the Ten Commandments.

There is another view that can be deduced from some passages of scripture; that there are no morals or laws whatsoever, that the only ultimate test is "Whatever God Says;" that this Biblical 'god' is beyond law, beyond morality, because he is the maker of laws and the universe. This Biblical 'god' does indeed act like 'he' is beyond the rule of law; that 'he' repeatedly violates those laws by murdering millions, torturing, and ordering others to violate 'his' own rules.

The first set of morals is human, comprehensible and has nearly universally agreement cross culturaly.
The second set is the stuff of myth.

Interesting insight. I wonder, though, if god is creator of all and perfect, would it even need morals? Maybe morals are merely human constructs for human actions and their justifications therein?
But even IF god had morals, and it broke them, so what? What are humans gonna' do about it?!?

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #60]

I should hope not! Have we looked at some of the things that humans consider moral? It changes over time, but still.

True they aren't consistent across time,

Or place. Same time, different place, different morals.

but god's doesn't seem to be either.

Yes, but there is that pesky word 'seem'. God (the God and Father of Christ) is as Christ reveals Him to be. If you know Christ, you know His Father as well.

The OT god is a grumpy, hell-bent, vengeful thing while the NT god seems to be a lot more 'sugar and spice and everything nice'. Though there are exceptions.

Well, the God I am speaking of is the God and Father of Christ, who is as Christ reveals Him to be.

And when it is written "God's ways are higher than our ways", it doesn't mean what some have twisted that into meaning: such as someone saying that 'hell' (eternal conscious torment) is an example of higher morality.

I should hope not. But what the bible 'means' is a lot like morality: its interpretation changes over time and from person to person - even with 'god's insight', it seems.

Pesky word that 'seems'. And what man interprets is going to depend on the man, their influences, their religion... but very rarely, depending upon Christ. Unfortunately.

Regardless, I cannot speak to other people's gods or interpretations. I can only speak to the God who has been revealed to me by Christ, the only God who I know, and that is the God and Father of Christ.

Religions (supposedly acting morally) have burned 'witches' at the stake (though I am sure the women accused of witchcraft would disagree with the morality of the act.) Even in the bible, it is mentioned that people burn their children in the fire, and that this is something that would NEVER have come from God. (Jeremiah 32:35)

Well, religions are 'unique' and human created, no doubt (though it can be said god is created by man as well, but that's not the topic of this thread). It's interesting how people can see the bible, pick out what god did and didn't say, then lay claim to being correct when hundreds and hundreds of people throughout time have said the bible is 'god's word' or 'god's inspired word'. Again, something interesting but not a thread topic.

Well in this case, Jeremiah 32:35 speaks for itself.

God (the God and Father of Christ) is love.

Said no one drowning in the flood.

That would change for anyone from the flood who receives the resurrection to life.

Regardless, just because some might not say it, this doesn't make it untrue.

The flood was necessary to save life from a far worse fate that would have occurred without the flood. Nor do I see how a person can legitimately blame God if He gives warning and a way out of a disaster, but that warning is not heeded, and that way out is not taken.

Though it must be said the bible says god is hate
https://www.openbible.info/topics/what_god_hates

That is a list of things that God hates (and should He not hate many things that go on in this world, in the hearts of people, etc?). That is not a list of quotes from the bible saying that 'god is hate'.

Though, I suspect, to be perfect, god has to be all things; love, hate, deceit, honest, slanderous, spiteful, joyous, happy, evil, good, ugly.... the list is endless.

Why would one have to be all these things to be perfect?

Love also covers over a multitude of sins.

But not all. Many? A great number? Maybe even most? But not all.
[/quote]

And...? Not sure what point you were making.



Peace again to you all.

[Diogenes]

Interesting insight. I wonder, though, if god is creator of all and perfect, would it even need morals? Maybe morals are merely human constructs for human actions and their justifications therein?
But even IF god had morals, and it broke them, so what? What are humans gonna' do about it?!?

I agree. IF there were a god like the Bible depicts, he would be outside our moral system. This is one of several reasons I do not even remotely believe in that god. It is an entirely human construct. Whether or not there is a 'god' at all, is an open question for me. I would like to think there is some kind of all powerful benevolence in existence... but... I'd also like to believe in an eternal paradise. However, I entirely rule out wishful thinking as an argument for either.

[Miles]

If therefore, as is the case in scripture, God is the ultimate lawgiver and it is He who sets whatnis "lawful" (See dictionary definition ) or not, then biblically Je cannot break the law. Ergo biblically God cannot commit the crime of murder.

But exactly why does being a lawgiver, judge, or executioner absolve a god of being accused of a crime?

One can accuse anyone of anything, (there is no shortage of wild unreasoning rants and ramblings in this world). However, for an accusation that a crime has been committee one has first to establish by law what crime that is. One cannot reasonably conclude a crime has been committed if no there is no law against that act.

But there is a crime. A crime that breaks a law god set forth. If the law says you cannot do X, but you do X then haven't you broken the law, and can rightfully be accused of doing just that, breaking the law? Of course. Yet you declare god is exempt from such accusation, but give no reasonable explanation, or chapter and verse citing such an exemption.

If the US state drew up a law that said no member of the Senate can be accused of murder before any State legislative body then then no member could commit the crime of murder. One might in this case call the law unjust and refuse to recognise it on moral grounds, that is ones perrogative, but this would still not negate that there would be no legal basis to declare a crime has been committed since there would be no such crime on the statue books.

If God is the ultimate lawgiver (ie. the one who decides what actually is a crime) and if he deems that none of his killings are unjustifie, then there is no crime of murder which he can commit.

But is that what he deems? If so, please point out the chapter and verse, because so far all we have here is your biased opinion.

Biblically* (as in according to scripture) , YHWH is not "above" the law .... God ** IS** the law.

At least you recognize that scripture says god is "not 'above' the law." Now explain how god, ** being ** the law, has any ramification on his not being above the law.

[ * ] PLEASE NOTE: I refer to scripture(biblically) as I am presenting my opinions which are based of the bibles view. I am ONLY mentioning the bible to show what Christianity says in line with subforum guidelines, not to prove that a statement or story therein is true. ​I am not presenting the bible as authorative or proof of truth and have no intention to add an argument to that end in this subforum See LINKS for details: viewtopic.php?p=213491#p213491

Then this all comes down to your personal OPINION, which makes the whole discussion here moot. *sheesh!*

Have a good day.


.

[Tcg]

Interesting insight. I wonder, though, if god is creator of all and perfect, would it even need morals? Maybe morals are merely human constructs for human actions and their justifications therein?
But even IF god had morals, and it broke them, so what? What are humans gonna' do about it?!?

I agree. IF there were a god like the Bible depicts, he would be outside our moral system. This is one of several reasons I do not even remotely believe in that god. It is an entirely human construct. Whether or not there is a 'god' at all, is an open question for me. I would like to think there is some kind of all powerful benevolence in existence... but... I'd also like to believe in an eternal paradise. However, I entirely rule out wishful thinking as an argument for either.

That is such an important distinction to make which often gets overlooked. I could wish to win the lottery every time I buy a ticket. My wish is of course not going to change the odds of me winning.


Tcg

[Miles]

Could god rightfully be unbiblically accused of murder"?

God could unbiblically be accused of anything (including not existing)

As I see it, yup.

but it seems to me if one is going to use the bible to establish his so-called "crimes" one at least should recognises that same source also "absolves" him of them.

Why? Why must the Bible absolve god of committing crimes he has established? If you have such a verse please present it.

In short, it would be counted ["counter"?] productive to accuse believers of ignoring parts of the bible where God (by their reading) commits so called atrocities while themselves ignoring the parts of the bible that support an alternative rationale. I think the term "cherry-picking" might come to mind.

So, let's hear this alternative rationale. Chapter and verse.


.

[JehovahsWitness]

[You're claiming that no one, or at least Diogenes here, should see no valid reason to conclude God has ever acted unjustly. But he has.

He has has he? Well Miles, this sounds very much like an opinion to me... if it is not your opinion (based on your understanding of the biblical text) what is it?

Then this all comes down to your personal OPINION, which makes the whole discussion here moot. *sheesh!*

[Tcg]

[You're claiming that no one, or at least Diogenes here, should see no valid reason to conclude God has ever acted unjustly. But he has.

He has has he? Well Miles, this sounds very much like an opinion to me... if it is not your opinion (based on your understanding of the biblical text) what is it?

Well JW, you're asking about another's opinion of the biblical text in a subforum where the Bible is not considered authoritative? What possible difference could the answer make?


Tcg

[Diogenes]

[Replying to Miles in post #67]
Of course the anatomical question comes to mind, "Could God be umbilically accused of murder?

[ sorry ]