God's love

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nobspeople
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God's love

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

It's said god loves humanity (it's also said god hates humanity but that's for another thread). Yet, god does do some things that, to humanity, seems, well.... not very 'loving':

According to biblical stories:
- God set up mankind to fail in the garden, which condemned mankind; one could say this allowed for god's love to provide humanity an 'out' with his son's sacrifice, though I'd counter there would be no need if there was no setup to begin with
- God leveled an entire city for it being 'bad' (for lack of a better term - everyone seems to have their own terms for this that tends to alter their POV)
- God drowned an entire planet - save a handful of people
- God drowned an entire army that followed Mosses (guess the animals in this and the above case were 'collateral damage'?)

God did these things with it could have LITERALLY done ANYTHING else it wanted. But these things... these are the things it wanted to do to people it's said to love.

Does this mean (agape love aside) is god's love different than the love humanity has?
For discussion:
If god's love is different than humanity's love, how can we know for sure anything about god's love for humanity and thus, love god outside of doing so out of fear?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: God's love

Post #11

Post by 1213 »

brunumb wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:17 pm ...How many people have suffered as a consequence of evil for the past thousands of years because God allowed it to continue? And when he did try to do something about it, like drowning the planet, the incompetent one didn't even succeed.
Is there someone from 1000 years ago, who was evil and is not dead? By what i know, people usually die before they are 120, if they are evil, they don't continue forever.

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JehovahsWitness
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Re: God's love

Post #12

Post by JehovahsWitness »

brunumb wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 7:28 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 5:26 am
brunumb wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:17 pm

Caring, I think, means also that one doesn't allow evil to continue. How many people have suffered as a consequence of evil for the past thousands of years because God allowed it to continue?
I don't believe that is necessarily true. Sometimes one has to allow evil to become manifest in order to properly deal with it. There is no suffering that an omnipotent God cannot wipe out.
Like wait until it is so bad that you have to drown the planet.

Where is the love and caring in allowing evil to manifest? If there is no suffering that an omnipotent God cannot wipe out, why the need to wait until it becomes manifest? Interim suffering doesn't seem to matter.

It matters but if it is necessary, and could be repaired and if it were necessary and the lesser of two evils, then it would be kindness and wisdom to do so.


It would depend on the issues involves.




JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Jan 01, 2022 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
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Re: God's love

Post #13

Post by brunumb »

mgb wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 7:38 am Any complex system of possibilities involves good and bad possibilities simply because it exists. Take chess, for example. Chess has an immense number of possible games. Not all of them are good chess. But bad chess exists because chess exists. The idea is to learn how to play good chess. Likewise with music; bad/good music exists because music exists. Creation involves possibilities. God is trying to show us how to be good 'chess players' and good 'musicians' and good people.
So there must be good trying and bad trying. The omnipotent one seems to be in the latter category considering his alleged skill set.
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brunumb
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Re: God's love

Post #14

Post by brunumb »

1213 wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 2:28 pm
brunumb wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:17 pm ...How many people have suffered as a consequence of evil for the past thousands of years because God allowed it to continue? And when he did try to do something about it, like drowning the planet, the incompetent one didn't even succeed.
Is there someone from 1000 years ago, who was evil and is not dead? By what i know, people usually die before they are 120, if they are evil, they don't continue forever.
I have absolutely no idea how any of that answers my questions.
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brunumb
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Re: God's love

Post #15

Post by brunumb »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 4:04 pm
brunumb wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 7:28 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 5:26 am
brunumb wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:17 pm

Caring, I think, means also that one doesn't allow evil to continue. How many people have suffered as a consequence of evil for the past thousands of years because God allowed it to continue?
I don't believe that is necessarily true. Sometimes one has to allow evil to become manifest in order to properly deal with it. There is no suffering that an omnipotent God cannot wipe out.
Like wait until it is so bad that you have to drown the planet.

Where is the love and caring in allowing evil to manifest? If there is no suffering that an omnipotent God cannot wipe out, why the need to wait until it becomes manifest? Interim suffering doesn't seem to matter.

It matters but if it is necessary, and cojld be repaires and if it were necessary and the lesser of two evils, then it would be kindness and wisdom to do so.


It would depend on the issues involves.

JW
You appear to be saying that allowing evil to manifest along with subsequent suffering can amount to kindness and wisdom. Hmmm. :?
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Miles
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Re: God's love

Post #16

Post by Miles »

mgb wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 7:38 am
brunumb wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 7:30 am
mgb wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 5:41 am
brunumb wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 4:37 pm 6. The existing world is not the best of all possible worlds, so God didn't create it. O:)
The best world is not the best you can imagine. It is the best that is practically possible given mankind's freedom to do evil.
Maybe a better world is one where mankind does not have the freedom to do evil.
Any complex system of possibilities involves good and bad possibilities simply because it exists. Take chess, for example. Chess has an immense number of possible games. Not all of them are good chess. But bad chess exists because chess exists. The idea is to learn how to play good chess. Likewise with music; bad/good music exists because music exists. Creation involves possibilities. God is trying to show us how to be good 'chess players' and good 'musicians' and good people.
Might want to look up "equivocation" in reference to your "bad" here.



.

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Re: God's love

Post #17

Post by mgb »

brunumb wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 4:29 pm So there must be good trying and bad trying. The omnipotent one seems to be in the latter category considering his alleged skill set.
Creation has the freedom to explore existence outside God's wisdom and perfection. It also has the freedom to return to God. Creation needs to learn how to be without becoming corrupt. If it will not listen to God it must go its own way and learn the hard way.

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Re: God's love

Post #18

Post by JehovahsWitness »

brunumb wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 4:35 pm

You appear to be saying that allowing evil to manifest along with subsequent suffering can amount to kindness and wisdom.
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Do you have anything to say in response?
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: God's love

Post #19

Post by brunumb »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 6:23 am
brunumb wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 4:35 pm

You appear to be saying that allowing evil to manifest along with subsequent suffering can amount to kindness and wisdom.
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Do you have anything to say in response?
Only that I am glad that I do not hold such views. I consider allowing evil to manifest with subsequent suffering the furthest thing from kindness or wisdom and totally unjustifiable. Do the faithful get brownie points for pandering to Jehovah in that way?
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Re: God's love

Post #20

Post by brunumb »

mgb wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 6:20 am
brunumb wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 4:29 pm So there must be good trying and bad trying. The omnipotent one seems to be in the latter category considering his alleged skill set.
Creation has the freedom to explore existence outside God's wisdom and perfection. It also has the freedom to return to God. Creation needs to learn how to be without becoming corrupt. If it will not listen to God it must go its own way and learn the hard way.
I'm sorry but I cannot make any sense out of that 'word salad'. Perhaps you could rephrase it in such a way that a numpty like myself can understand what you mean.
Christianty: 2000 years of making it up as you go along.

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