"Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

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Tcg
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"Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #1

Post by Tcg »

.

This article reports on data from Germany that reveals that abolishing religious teaching in schools leads to a decline in belief but not morality:
Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals
Torsten Bell

Data taken from across Germany reveals that as mandated RE was abolished, atheism increased as a collective choice

We tend to think about religiousness as a personal decision but new research examining the role of schools illustrates that collective choices have a part to play. The authors use data from Germany, exploiting the fact the religious education mandated by the postwar West German constitution was removed across different states at different times from the 1970s. They find abolishment significantly reduced religiousness, both in private (less praying) and public (church attendance). The effect was biggest in Catholic areas.

Before the social conservatives get all up in arms, note there was no impact on moral or ethical views, life satisfaction or political leaning. That may be because religious education was replaced with non-denominational ethical teaching, rather than more maths.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... not-morals
Does this finding support the claim some make that humans are indeed atheists at birth and will remain so unless or until they are taught to believe in god/gods?

Is it likely that some will continue to view atheists as being less moral than theists even though the data reported here contradicts that view and if so, why?


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: "Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #51

Post by Tcg »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:03 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:59 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:53 am
Tcg wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:35 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:28 am
I made no comment about the (bizarre) claim "abolishment significantly reduced religiousness" but of the claim "no impact on moral or ethical views, life satisfaction or political leaning".

It is the latter claim I am skeptical of, perhaps you overlooked it.
Then feel free to provide verifiable evidence that contradicts this data.


Tcg
I never claimed there was evidence contradicting the data, please re-read what I wrote.
I've already read it. I was curious as to whether or not you could support your skepticism with something like facts.


Tcg
I'm skeptical by default, it is my default position unless and until rational justifications emerge that might change that position.

Have you yourself even seen the purported evidence behind the claim "no impact on moral or ethical views, life satisfaction or political leaning"?
So, no facts to be presented? Nothing but a claim of skepticism?


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: "Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #52

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Tcg wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:05 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:03 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:59 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:53 am
Tcg wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:35 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:28 am
I made no comment about the (bizarre) claim "abolishment significantly reduced religiousness" but of the claim "no impact on moral or ethical views, life satisfaction or political leaning".

It is the latter claim I am skeptical of, perhaps you overlooked it.
Then feel free to provide verifiable evidence that contradicts this data.


Tcg
I never claimed there was evidence contradicting the data, please re-read what I wrote.
I've already read it. I was curious as to whether or not you could support your skepticism with something like facts.


Tcg
I'm skeptical by default, it is my default position unless and until rational justifications emerge that might change that position.

Have you yourself even seen the purported evidence behind the claim "no impact on moral or ethical views, life satisfaction or political leaning"?
So, no facts to be presented? Nothing but a claim of skepticism?


Tcg
Precisely, I've requested (four times now) facts but you seem reticent to provide any, but never mind, open minded readers here can likely draw their own conclusions.
When one has eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

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Re: "Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #53

Post by Tcg »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:14 pm
Precisely, I've requested (four times now) facts but you seem reticent to provide any, but never mind, open minded readers here can likely draw their own conclusions.
I provided them with the O.P. Facts you have refused to address. Yes, readers will draw their own conclusions.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: "Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #54

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Tcg wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:17 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:14 pm
Precisely, I've requested (four times now) facts but you seem reticent to provide any, but never mind, open minded readers here can likely draw their own conclusions.
I provided them with the O.P. Facts you have refused to address. Yes, readers will draw their own conclusions.


Tcg
Let me ask you a second time, have you yourself even seen the purported evidence behind the claim "no impact on moral or ethical views, life satisfaction or political leaning"?
When one has eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

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Re: "Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #55

Post by Tcg »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:32 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:17 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:14 pm
Precisely, I've requested (four times now) facts but you seem reticent to provide any, but never mind, open minded readers here can likely draw their own conclusions.
I provided them with the O.P. Facts you have refused to address. Yes, readers will draw their own conclusions.


Tcg
Let me ask you a second time, have you yourself even seen the purported evidence behind the claim "no impact on moral or ethical views, life satisfaction or political leaning"?
I've not only seen it, but I have also lived it. Can you provide verifiable evidence to the contrary?


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: "Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #56

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Tcg wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:35 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:32 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:17 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:14 pm
Precisely, I've requested (four times now) facts but you seem reticent to provide any, but never mind, open minded readers here can likely draw their own conclusions.
I provided them with the O.P. Facts you have refused to address. Yes, readers will draw their own conclusions.


Tcg
Let me ask you a second time, have you yourself even seen the purported evidence behind the claim "no impact on moral or ethical views, life satisfaction or political leaning"?
I've not only seen it, but I have also lived it.
May I see the data please? that's all I've been asking.
Tcg wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:35 pm Can you provide verifiable evidence to the contrary?
I would offer that if I were advocating the contrary, but I'm not, I'm asking for justification, data, facts that support the proposition (which you are advocating) that abolishing religious education has "no impact on moral or ethical views, life satisfaction or political leaning".

Since you have none we might as well leave it here, your argument is just an argument from authority (a newspaper article), that's fine too, just want to be clear that that's all it is.
When one has eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

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Re: "Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #57

Post by Tcg »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:43 pm
May I see the data please? that's all I've been asking.
I provided it in the O.P. I in fact presented it before you asked for it.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: "Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #58

Post by alexxcJRO »

Tcg wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:30 am .

This article reports on data from Germany that reveals that abolishing religious teaching in schools leads to a decline in belief but not morality:
Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals
Torsten Bell

Data taken from across Germany reveals that as mandated RE was abolished, atheism increased as a collective choice

We tend to think about religiousness as a personal decision but new research examining the role of schools illustrates that collective choices have a part to play. The authors use data from Germany, exploiting the fact the religious education mandated by the postwar West German constitution was removed across different states at different times from the 1970s. They find abolishment significantly reduced religiousness, both in private (less praying) and public (church attendance). The effect was biggest in Catholic areas.

Before the social conservatives get all up in arms, note there was no impact on moral or ethical views, life satisfaction or political leaning. That may be because religious education was replaced with non-denominational ethical teaching, rather than more maths.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... not-morals
Does this finding support the claim some make that humans are indeed atheists at birth and will remain so unless or until they are taught to believe in god/gods?

Is it likely that some will continue to view atheists as being less moral than theists even though the data reported here contradicts that view and if so, why?


Tcg

1.There is a subjective (societal)morality that has developed as eons went by.

2.Also we humans have an objective morality that exist independent of religious propaganda or what we have been taught as one grows up in society.

Evolution -> Mirror neurons -> Affective Empathy.

As a result of this mirroring process =affective empathy we humans(except psychopaths who have a innate problem involving the affective empathy) have developed intrinsically a sense of morality) mostly guided by the Golden Rule or law of reciprocity which is the principle of treating others as one would wish to be treated oneself.
It is a fact that when you see children, women being raped, tortured or killed; when you see the face of someone experiencing intense fear/pain/suffering your mirror neurons fire and the affective empathy process is triggered. You empathize with these people for you put yourself in their shoes aka the mirroring process and because you would not want to be raped, tortured, killed(your existence to be stopped, because of the survival instinct) you instinctively find these actions abhorrent.

The above two kind of morality do not disappear after one is no longer subjected to religious propaganda.
Off course some religious people would never believe morality or people behaving morally can exist without the “objective morality” of the bible.
The problem is reality always finds ways to contradict the ramblings of religious people may that be beliefs about global floods, gays, young earth and universe, language origin or in this case morality.
Off course all humans are born atheists(lack a belief in god or gods). 8-)
(Opinion)Absent religious indoctrination and brainwash I and many billions of people would have not believe in god or gods.
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."

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Re: "Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #59

Post by brunumb »

Veridican wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:55 am I know there's nothing missing in you anyway. You hang out on a religion debate forum. You probably do believe in God. In fact, I'll bet you pray--granted it may be arguing and fighting--but I'll bet you pray more than most...Catholics do. My guess is you're not really an atheist, you just want God on your own terms. Which I completely get. It doesn't mean your atheism is a correct doctrine any more than Catholicism is, but I doubt you're a "true" atheist.
Wrong on all counts. Your intuition, mind-reading skills or special communications from the holy spirit are all letting you down. Why am I suddenly reminded of Dunning-Kruger? Never mind. Try demonstrating that Veridicanism is any more legitimate than any of the countless other made-up religions piggy-backing on Christianity instead of telling others what they really believe.
Christianty: 2000 years of making it up as you go along.

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Re: "Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

Post #60

Post by Veridican »

brunumb wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:19 pm Wrong on all counts. Your intuition, mind-reading skills or special communications from the holy spirit are all letting you down.
Never! [-X

Why am I suddenly reminded of Dunning-Kruger?
Because it's an atheist buzz word that gets thrown around in place of telling someone they're wrong. It makes you sound smarter. That's why.
Never mind. Try demonstrating that Veridicanism is any more legitimate than any of the countless other made-up religions piggy-backing on Christianity instead of telling others what they really believe.
It's not me saying it's more legitimate. It is necessarily the true religion of Jesus Christ. That's not an emotional statement. I actually didn't realize it for many many years. But I don't think it's cool to hijack this thread and start talking about it. But I'd like to start up the conversation. I'll look and see if one of the boards allows for that. :approve: ;)
All for Christ and only for Christ! :wave:

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