Christianity and Redemptive Suffering

[boatsnguitars]

Most Christians don't realize it, but suffering is a major part of their religion. They fetishize it (many Christians festishize it in both meanings of the word. Numerous accounts of priests physically and sexaully abusing young children are clear indications of how they view suffering as an invaluable part of their world view).

But I want to talk about the more academic view of suffering in Christianity: Redemptive Suffering. The "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger" variety.

The idea of redemptive suffering is a concept that is deeply rooted in Christian theology. This concept suggests that suffering can have spiritual significance and can lead to greater understanding or connection with God. The idea is that through the experience of suffering, individuals can become closer to God and gain a deeper understanding of the nature of God's love and grace. Mother Theresa was the poster child for this, and her legacy of causing maximal suffering is legendary. She purposely denied money to build new hospitals, hire doctors and nurses and withheld life-saving medicine because she believed suffering brought people closer to God is their final, desperate hours. Her body count is absurdly high, yet Christians praise her for it.

Of course, it starts with Jesus showing the way:
One of the key biblical texts that supports the idea of redemptive suffering is the account of the Passion of Jesus Christ. According to the Gospels, Jesus suffered greatly on the cross, enduring physical pain and emotional distress in order to atone for the sins of humanity. In the Gospel of Matthew, for example, Jesus tells his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me" (Matthew 16:24). This passage suggests that the experience of suffering can be a means of following Jesus and growing closer to him.

Another biblical passage that supports the idea of redemptive suffering is found in the letter of James, where the author writes, "Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing" (James 1:2-4). This passage suggests that trials and hardships can be a means of testing and strengthening one's faith, ultimately leading to greater spiritual maturity.

In Catholic theology, the idea of redemptive suffering is closely tied to the concept of purgatory, which is a place or state of being where individuals who have died in a state of grace undergo purification before entering heaven. According to Catholic teaching, the sufferings experienced in purgatory are redemptive and can lead to the forgiveness of sins and the attainment of eternal life.

The concept of redemptive suffering has also been explored by a number of Christian theologians and philosophers throughout history. For example, the 20th-century Catholic theologian Hans Urs von Balthasar wrote extensively about the idea of redemptive suffering, arguing that "suffering is an essential element of the Christian life" and that "it is only through suffering that we can enter into the fullness of the life that Christ offers us" (Theo-Drama: Theological Dramatic Theory, Vol. 5, Ignatius Press, 1998, p. 78).

Overall, the concept of redemptive suffering is a key theme in Christian theology, and is based on a number of biblical passages and theological concepts. While the idea of suffering may seem difficult or unpleasant to any rational person, Christians believe that it can ultimately lead to greater spiritual growth and understanding, as well as the attainment of eternal life. Christians will excuse all the suffering, all the evil because they believe it is for a greater Good.

This is one of the reasons Christianity is so poor at understanding moral values, especially when moral values are tied to harm. Most moral philosophers understand moral values in terms of harm, but Christians can't understand this since they feel harm is an integral part of the human experience. They applaud Peter for being crucified upside-down - increasing his suffering - because he thought being killed upright was an affront to Jesus. Imagine the depravity of thought that you have to debase yourself even more in your death! Yet, Christians love this story!

Christians love to say, "All the apostles suffered for the Faith! They all went willingly to their deaths, rather than recant" It's not "as if" they are saying it's better to suffer and die than live, they are ACTUALLY saying it.

As theologian James Cone writes, "The cross is the most empowering symbol of the Christian faith because it symbolizes the redemptive suffering of Jesus and the hope that such suffering gives to the oppressed" (The Cross and the Lynching Tree, Orbis Books, 2011, p. 27).

See that: "empowering". They think it's empowering. Contrast that to what, e.g., Humanists think empowers people: education, political involvement, self-confidence, personal relationships, etc.

1. What is redemptive suffering, and how does it relate to Christian theology?
2. What is the biblical basis for the concept of redemptive suffering?
3. How does redemptive suffering differ from other ideas about the role of suffering in spiritual growth?
4. In what ways can the idea of redemptive suffering be empowering for individuals who are experiencing hardship or pain?
5. What criticisms have been raised against the concept of redemptive suffering, and how have Christian theologians responded to these critiques?

(BTW, some have asked why my posts seem like school projects. I use them for my Bible study at my local Church. I edit out some of the things.).

[JehovahsWitness]

(BTW, some have asked why my posts seem like school projects. I use them for my Bible study at my local Church. I edit out some of the things.).

You teach bible classes?

[TRANSPONDER]

He asks Bible questions.

But I am intrigued by this evidently instinctive religious idea of sacrifice. Something given up; time, money or effort in the idea that some divine reward will be given. Earthly benefits, or an escape from death. I'm intrigued, but not impressed by it.

[JehovahsWitness]

DID JESUS ACTIVELY SEEKING HARDHIP OR SELF INFLICTED PAIN AS A MEANS TO GAINING FRIENDSHIP WITH GOD?

Absolutely not. This idea coming from a gross distortion of his words. Jesus encouraged his disciples to follow his example and the gospel narrative present a person who was balanced, enjoyed the pleasures in life to a reasonable degree and at no time actively sought self harm or physical or emotional pain as a means to pleasing God. On the contrary, Jesus told his disciples, if they were being persecuted in one area to flee to another and never promoted self deprivation.

MATTHEW 16:24


"If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me"

.

Does Matthew 16 suggests that the experience of suffering is a means of following Jesus and growing closer to him?


No, this is a gross misinterpretation of Jesus words. Jesus was not promoting self harm or self deprivation, but was being realistic and illustrating that it would not be possible to serve God without a measure of self sacrifice. This was not a call to deny themselves medical treatment or to arbitrarily seek suffering but a reminder that they will need to stick to Christian principles despite pressure and persecution that opposes would inevitably bring upon them.

To illustrate : A team leader on an expedition to the North Pole explains that they will have to be prepared to suffer cold. The cold is an inevitable consequence of the choice they have made but it is not the means to the end. So his words should not be taken to mean, if they want to get to the North Pole faster they should take off their protective gear and do the trip naked. Neither did it mean that if they were to stayed at home but climbed into their freezer, the cold would draw them closer to the North Pole. The cold itself will not get you closer to the North Pole any more than breaking your own leg or holding your hand in a pot of boiling water will get you closer to Christ

.

CONCLUSION Jesus was not an ascetic or a masochist. He did not teach pain or physical hardship should be actively sought as a means to drawing closer to God, but rather explained that persecution and self denial would be an inevitable part of living by godly principle in a godless world.



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[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #4]


That is something of a misrepresentation too, even without the thorny problem of denying blood -transfusions, hey? But there is this demand that there be sacrifice, or time, money and effort, even to the extent of self -denial, giving up stuff for Lent, only fish on Friday, no drink, baccy or sex. Always this idea of denying or punishing - yes,punishing -the self in exchange for some benefit now or in an afterlife. It is an instinct, I think, but that doesn't mean that it is not easily exploited by the masters of bait - and - switch.

[boatsnguitars]

(BTW, some have asked why my posts seem like school projects. I use them for my Bible study at my local Church. I edit out some of the things.).

You teach bible classes?

I lead Bible discussions, I don't teach, I ask questions and let them think about how they'd answer.

[boatsnguitars]

DID JESUS ACTIVELY SEEKING HARDHIP OR SELF INFLICTED PAIN AS A MEANS TO GAINING FRIENDSHIP WITH GOD?

Absolutely not. This idea coming from a gross distortion of his words. Jesus encouraged his disciples to follow his example and the gospel narrative present a person who was balanced, enjoyed the pleasures in life to a reasonable degree and at no time actively sought self harm or physical or emotional pain as a means to pleasing God. On the contrary, Jesus told his disciples, if they were being persecuted in one area to flee to another and never promoted self deprivation.

MATTHEW 16:24


"If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me"

.

Does Matthew 16 suggests that the experience of suffering is a means of following Jesus and growing closer to him?


No, this is a gross misinterpretation of Jesus words. Jesus was not promoting self harm or self deprivation, but was being realistic and illustrating that it would not be possible to serve God without a measure of self sacrifice. This was not a call to deny themselves medical treatment or to arbitrarily seek suffering but a reminder that they will need to stick to Christian principles despite pressure and persecution that opposes would inevitably bring upon them.

To illustrate : A team leader on an expedition to the North Pole explains that they will have to be prepared to suffer cold. The cold is an inevitable consequence of the choice they have made but it is not the means to the end. So his words should not be taken to mean, if they want to get to the North Pole faster they should take off their protective gear and do the trip naked. Neither did it mean that if they were to stayed at home but climbed into their freezer, the cold would draw them closer to the North Pole. The cold itself will not get you closer to the North Pole any more than breaking your own leg or holding your hand in a pot of boiling water will get you closer to Christ

.

CONCLUSION Jesus was not an ascetic or a masochist. He did not teach pain or physical hardship should be actively sought as a means to drawing closer to God, but rather explained that persecution and self denial would be an inevitable part of living by godly principle in a godless world.

Again, you minimize the suffering, and you miss the point. So, let me put on my Bible discussion leader hat. This is what I have prepared for my next discussion:

Topic: Why Suffering is Good

Overview:
In our world, suffering is often seen as something negative to be avoided at all costs. Many moral systems are based on the principle of minimizing harm, and see suffering as something to be eliminated. However, as Christians, we have a different perspective on suffering. We believe that suffering can be a pathway to experiencing God, and that it can lead to personal growth and transformation. In this Bible study, we will explore the Christian view of suffering and how it can be good for us.

Key Bible Verses:

Romans 5:3-5: "Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us."

James 1:2-4: "Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing."

Conclusion:
Christians recognize that suffering is not something to be avoided at all costs, but rather a pathway to personal growth and transformation. Through struggles, Christians can develop endurance, character, and hope, and experience the love of God in a deeper way. Let us remember that God recognizes our suffering and sees it as Good. God has allowed suffering because it is worth it to Him, because of Free Will. While God won't stop our suffering now, He promises to in the future.

Discussion Questions:
1. What is your initial reaction to the idea that suffering can be good for us? How does this differ from the way society generally views suffering?
2. How does the Christian view of suffering differ from other moral systems that are based on minimizing harm?
3. According to Romans 5:3-5, what are the positive outcomes that can result from suffering? How do these outcomes contribute to our growth as Christians?
4. How does James 1:2-4 describe the process of growth that can occur through suffering? How does this process lead us to become better people?
5. How can we maintain our faith and trust in God during times of suffering? What can we do to lean on Him and allow Him to use our suffering for good?
6. In what ways has suffering helped you to grow and develop as a person? How have you seen God work in your life through difficult times?
7. What is the significance of the phrase "cleansed by fire" in relation to suffering? How does this idea relate to the Christian view of suffering and transformation?

I'll be interested to see what they have to say. I know they will talk about how great suffering is in their life, despite how much it hurts, because of the sacrifice, and because they know it's what God wanted for this world - otherwise, He would have stopped it.

BTW, your next question is why is an atheist leading a Bible study group, isn't it? Because I care. There are more of us than you realize, btw.

[JehovahsWitness]

BTW, your next question is why is an atheist leading a Bible study group, isn't it? ...

It did cross my mind; do your students know you are an atheist? I ask because many people study the bible to get closer to God, for such one's isn't it a bit like being guided through the woods by someone that can't see the woods.

MATTHEW 15:14

if one blind person guides another, they will both fall into a ditch

[JehovahsWitness]

... Christians, we have a different perspective on suffering. We believe that suffering can be a pathway to experiencing God, and that it can lead to personal growth and transformation.

This idea is not biblically sound because it perverts what Jesus was saying. I have addressed the point in detail above, feel free to present a counterargument if you choose. Suffering in itself is not a means to an end; suffering because one is standing by bible law and principle is indeed pleasing to God because he values obedience (and yes, we can in the process learn qualities such as self control and empathy) but what you have written it is badly expressed and as a result misleading. It implies that it is the suffering itself that is a {quote} "pathway to experiencing God" {end quote} and this is biblically false. Jesus is the way to God and biblically if someone wants a relationship with God they must

1. Become convinced He exists (Heb 11:6)
2. Learnt about him by studying the bible (John 17:3)
3. Communicate with him through prayer (Jam 4:8)
4. Experience His power in their life through putting into practise what they learn from the bible.

The above steps will attract opposition and hardships because Satan the devil is the ruler of this world, but the hardships are not what draws us closer to God , our being humble and obediently following Christ will.


JW

[boatsnguitars]

... Christians, we have a different perspective on suffering. We believe that suffering can be a pathway to experiencing God, and that it can lead to personal growth and transformation.

This idea is not biblically sound because it perverts what Jesus was saying. I have addressed the point in detail above, feel free to present a counterargument if you choose. Suffering in itself is not a means to an end; suffering because one is standing by bible law and principle is indeed pleasing to God because he values obedience (and yes, we can in the process learn qualities such as self control and empathy) but what you have written it is badly expressed and as a result misleading. It implies that it is the suffering itself that is a {quote} "pathway to experiencing God" {end quote} and this is biblically false. Jesus is the way to God and biblically if someone wants a relationship with God they must

1. Become convinced He exists (Heb 11:6)
2. Learnt about him by studying the bible (John 17:3)
3. Communicate with him through prayer (Jam 4:8)
4. Experience His power in their life through putting into practise what they learn from the bible.

The above steps will attract opposition and hardships because Satan the devil is the ruler of this world, but the hardships are not what draws us closer to God , our being humble and obediently following Christ will.


JW

That's your opinion. I'll let others come to their own interpretation. I'm not here to force dogma on people - I'm here to offer the fruit from the tree. I notice you aren't thinking about the topic, but trying to avoid it.

The fact is, my approach has been very fruitful from my point of view.

For example, I'd take Heb 11:6 and create a topic:

Topic: "Faith vs. Evidence: Does God Reward Those Who Believe Without Seeing?"

Introduction:
Hebrews 11:6 says, "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."

This verse suggests that faith is necessary to please God and receive his rewards. But, many question whether faith is a reliable way to know anything, including the existence of God. This study will explore the concept of faith and whether it is a reasonable basis for belief.

Hebrews 11:6 presents an interesting perspective on the role of faith in pleasing God and receiving his rewards. We may not accept the premise that faith is a reliable way to know anything, but it is still worth examining our beliefs and understanding how we arrive at them. By exploring the concept of faith and its limitations, we can develop a clearer understanding of what we believe and why.

Discussion Questions:
1. What does it mean to have faith in God? Is it the same as having faith in something else, like a scientific theory or a friend?
2. Hebrews 11:1 defines faith as "confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see." Do you agree with this definition? Why or why not?
3. Is it possible to have faith in something without evidence? What is the difference between faith and blind faith?
4. How does Hebrews 11:6 suggest that God rewards those who believe in him? Do you think this is a fair system?
5. Can someone who doesn't believe in God still be a good person? Do you need to believe in God to have a sense of morality?
6. Are there other ways to seek truth and knowledge besides faith? What are the advantages and disadvantages of relying on faith vs. evidence and reason?

I'd encourage you to question more and assert less.