Christianity is commonsense

[harvey1]

I'm not an expert on other religions, so I won't compare Christianity to other religions, but I will say that Christianity makes a great deal of sense. Here are some sensical notions that I think make it a 'no-brainer' to be a Christian:

1. Logos: God is infinite and undescribable, but the Logos (or Logic) of God is the means by which God creates and transforms the world. Who can argue with Logic as the means by which creation takes place? What? Are we supposed to believe that illogic is the means by which creation takes place? C'mon.

2. Trinity: God is symmetry. That is, symmetry is 'be', 'becoming', 'that which becomes'. This is the name of God in Christianity (i.e., Yahweh), which means the three states of existence - or the basis of all symmetry. Symmetry transformation is already been shown in physics to be the basis of all major theories in physics, so it is perfectly logical to believe in the religion that embrasses symmetry in the actual name of God.

3. Mustard seed principle: Christianity is based on the notion that God is transforming the world from a mustard seed to a rich kingdom of life to be harvested at the end of time. What more can be apparent than this simple fact. The universe started off as a 'seed' and it is clear that as intelligence continues to evolve it will become more and more like God - hence a kingdom of God. It makes perfect sense.

Thus, Christianity is commonsense.

[The Hungry Atheist]

Right...

1. I'm not quite clear what you're saying here, but you seem to be claiming that logic requires the existence of God, and couldn't possibly exist without him; since the Universe is logical, it must have been made so by God. Is this right, or am i misinterpreting? If the latter, please let me know, but this is clearly only an argument for theism, not Christianity.

2. Claiming that "three states of existence" is "the basis of all symmetry" seems bizarre to me, I'd like to hear how you reached that conclusion. Yes, symmetry is a big part of physics, but I wouldn't call it the "basis of all major theories", and it's a huuuuge leap simply to say, "There's symmetry in the Universe, this religion talks about a symmetrical God, therefore this religion is probably correct." That would be like convincing people to convert to pieism based on the observation that there is pie in the Universe.

3. See, there's really not that much correlation here that I can see. The Christian claim seems simply to be that the world will improve as time passes, and that life will flourish. You don't need to observe much life to know that that's what it tends to do. This is just a rather poetic description of the world, perfectly concoctable by man alone. I can't see anything about any of these arguments which necessitates the existence of any God.

[Nyril]

Who can argue with Logic as the means by which creation takes place? What? Are we supposed to believe that illogic is the means by which creation takes place? C'mon.

I don't see how logic enters into the picture here. I really don't, it could just be me though.

Symmetry transformation is already been shown in physics to be the basis of all major theories in physics, so it is perfectly logical to believe in the religion that embrasses symmetry in the actual name of God.

I don't really see your particular religion embracing symmetry. Sorry to be so negative, but symmetry is only an inferred property of the Trinity, not an aspect of it that's ground into you from the books. If the books clearly pointed this out as an important lesson in things I might buy it, but the connection is tenative at best.

Mustard seed principle: Christianity is based on the notion that God is transforming the world from a mustard seed to a rich kingdom of life to be harvested at the end of time. What more can be apparent than this simple fact.

It's not apparent to me.

[harvey1]

Right...

1. I'm not quite clear what you're saying here, but you seem to be claiming that logic requires the existence of God, and couldn't possibly exist without him; since the Universe is logical, it must have been made so by God. Is this right, or am i misinterpreting? If the latter, please let me know, but this is clearly only an argument for theism, not Christianity.

Not what I'm saying. The Bible places the Logos (which means logic) as co-existent with God (which is a mystery). It also says that the Logos comes from God. All the creation in the world is done by God acting through the Logos.

2. Claiming that "three states of existence" is "the basis of all symmetry" seems bizarre to me, I'd like to hear how you reached that conclusion. Yes, symmetry is a big part of physics, but I wouldn't call it the "basis of all major theories", and it's a huuuuge leap simply to say, "There's symmetry in the Universe, this religion talks about a symmetrical God, therefore this religion is probably correct." That would be like convincing people to convert to pieism based on the observation that there is pie in the Universe.

Sure, symmetry is based on a threefold aspect to a transformation. Or, more technically, it is "invariance under a specified group of transformations". There is the original group state, the transformation group, and the invariant group state. Or, in terms of ontology, this is a 'be' state, 'becoming' state, and 'become state'. This is the Hebrew translation for Yahweh. In the Hebrew culture names meant more than a token identifier. They were used to define the person or object. In the case of Moses, by asking God's name, what he was really asking was 'what was God'. The answer is the same as how symmetries are defined. God is invariance with respect to change. It's fundamental position in science is really a primitive to God's existence.

3. See, there's really not that much correlation here that I can see. The Christian claim seems simply to be that the world will improve as time passes, and that life will flourish. You don't need to observe much life to know that that's what it tends to do. This is just a rather poetic description of the world, perfectly concoctable by man alone. I can't see anything about any of these arguments which necessitates the existence of any God.

It's more than that. It is saying that the creation of God starts off with the smallest seed possible (which for science today should be considered a quantum fluctuation) and it spreads rapidly and massively to encompass the whole world as we see it. This is more than a transitory fact, it is a principle that makes a major aspect of the Christian religion. It says that God starts off something with the most humble beginning, and then the world comes to recognize that thing as the great thing it is. For example, Jesus was a carpenter who washed the feet of his disciples (a very lowly state for a man at that period in history), yet he is and was the Christ! This principle is a derivative of the minimum principle which is also another very utilized approach within science and mathematics.

[Gaunt]

the Logos (which means logic)

Just to respond to this real quick. Logos does not mean logic. It is Greek for "Word"

The Logos of God is the "Word of God". Jesus was described as the Word made flesh.. etc.

[harvey1]

I don't see how logic enters into the picture here. I really don't, it could just be me though.

In other words, Christianity is saying that logic has an ontological existence, and that logic comes as a result of the unfathomable (God).

I don't really see your particular religion embracing symmetry. Sorry to be so negative, but symmetry is only an inferred property of the Trinity, not an aspect of it that's ground into you from the books. If the books clearly pointed this out as an important lesson in things I might buy it, but the connection is tenative at best.

I have to disagree. It is not mentioned as symmetry, since symmetry is a technical term. However, Christianity mentions symmetry over and over as part of the key doctrines:

"regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ." (Rom. 1:3)

"Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." (II Cor. 3:17-18)

"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body." (Phil. 3: 20-21)

These are key scriptures of Christianity. In fact, I would say they represent the heart and soul of Christian teaching. They are basically symmetry transformations about God using Christ as a transforming agent to bring Christians into the likeness of God.

It's not apparent to me.

The big bang is not apparent to you?

[harvey1]

the Logos (which means logic)

Just to respond to this real quick. Logos does not mean logic. It is Greek for "Word"

The Logos of God is the "Word of God". Jesus was described as the Word made flesh.. etc.

Well, 'Logos' is not exactly logic in terms of a formalized system with axioms, but the term 'Word' does not capture the meaning as much as the term logic as it is typical used today (i.e., acting on sound reasoning). To be technically correct, logos meant logical thought plus action (see Covino, William A., and David A. Jolliffe. Rhetoric: Concepts, Definitions, Boundaries. Boston: Allyn and Bacon, 1995, page 17). Not only does God possess a logical property, this property is in action as reasoning or thought of God which is active in the world.

[Arch]

Logos: God is infinite and undescribable

So is the Universe should we worship it as well? No one knows the beginnings or the end of the universe. No one knows that full nature and description of the universe, does this make the universe worthy of our praise? Should we base a religion on the Universe?

2. Trinity: God is symmetry. That is, symmetry is 'be', 'becoming', 'that which becomes'. This is the name of God in Christianity (i.e., Yahweh), which means the three states of existence - or the basis of all symmetry. Symmetry transformation is already been shown in physics to be the basis of all major theories in physics, so it is perfectly logical to believe in the religion that embrasses symmetry in the actual name of God.

The GOD YAHWEH, doesn't represent symmetry. The actual named is a shortened version of what was told to Moses in exodus 3:16. What was stated is Ehayah asher Ehawah. Shortened to yahawah then yahweh.

This description says I am life, or I am existence. There is no other states other than simply existing. IF the nature GOD is the way the religious people say it is, then GOD can not become nor be becoming. GOD can just be I AM the present form of the word to be.

According to christians GOD always was so, thus he would have always been "I AM" He could not have been I was, nor I am becoming. If he existed as the entirety of existence always. Then he has no past nor future tense to his existence.

There is no past or future for GOD, if he has always existed in a perfected state and is the totality of existence. Anyway time is something reserved for the universe and the mortal.

Let me know if I confused you.

[harvey1]

So is the Universe should we worship it as well? No one knows the beginnings or the end of the universe. No one knows that full nature and description of the universe, does this make the universe worthy of our praise? Should we base a religion on the Universe?

Well, technically the Universe is everything, so God is part of the Universe... But, I think you mean the material universe, in which case I'll personally give you a reprieve from going through the trouble. As it turns out, even if the material universe is of infinite duration this does not mean it is infinite and undescribable in terms of its knowledge and comprehension. It is this property that separates an infinite universe from an infinite God.

The GOD YAHWEH, doesn't represent symmetry. The actual named is a shortened version of what was told to Moses in exodus 3:16. What was stated is Ehayah asher Ehawah. Shortened to yahawah then yahweh. This description says I am life, or I am existence. There is no other states other than simply existing. IF the nature GOD is the way the religious people say it is, then GOD can not become nor be becoming. GOD can just be I AM the present form of the word to be. According to christians GOD always was so, thus he would have always been "I AM" He could not have been I was, nor I am becoming.

The name in Exodus 3:14 in Hebrew is a four letter name: YHVH (Yod-Heh-Vav-Heh) See the Hebrew alphabet for a description of the four letters (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... phbet.html).

As to the meaning of YHVH, the notes on Exodus 3:14 in the Jewish

"3:14 And God said unto Moses, I n AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

(n) The God who has always been, am, and shall be: the God almighty, by whom all things have their being, and the God of mercy, mindful of my promise."

If he existed as the entirety of existence always. Then he has no past nor future tense to his existence. There is no past or future for GOD, if he has always existed in a perfected state and is the totality of existence. Anyway time is something reserved for the universe and the mortal.

However, that's what eternalism is - past, present, and future all existing as 'one' holistic existence. If you say God is what exists right now, then that's not exactly true since God exists in the past and God exists in the future. All the things that describe God (namely his actions, thoughts, etc) may not exist at the present moment, so God cannot be limited to today. This is what symmetry represents. A symmetrically deduced state is not totally what it was prior to the transformation, and it is not totally what it is during the transformation, it is the whole symmetrical 'state' that exists. However, God isn't just a symmetrical state. God is primitive to existence (i.e., a first principle) which means that existence is an inherent symmetry (i.e., assuming God exists for original, transformation, and invariance situations and those transforming situations exist because of God). As it turns out, everything that exists is reliant on God's existence for its substance (including the material universe) hence all symmetries in the universe are a direct result of God's existence.

[bernee51]

Well, technically the Universe is everything, so God is part of the Universe...

I see...god is bounded by the universe. I'm sure many a deist would fail to agree with that one.

As it turns out, even if the material universe is of infinite duration this does not mean it is infinite and undescribable in terms of its knowledge and comprehension. It is this property that separates an infinite universe from an infinite God.

I haven't the faintest idea what you are taliking about here. What is your definition of 'infinite', 'universe' and 'god'?