How did Jesus take our punishment?

[OnceConvinced]

Standard Christian doctrine is that Jesus paid the price for our sins. That he took the punishment that rightfully belonged to us on himself. This was his ultimate act of love for mankind. As a Christian I believed that completely and never even considered thinking about it critically.

But did Jesus really take our punishment?

The wages of sin is death. Sure, Jesus died, but then was resurrected three days later to live for eternity in Heaven at the right hand side of God. That is not what will happen to the sinner who doesn't repent. The sinner who doesn't repent will perish in hell. Jesus didn't perish in hell. The sinner will not be resurrected after they have perished. No eternal life. So how in that scenario is Jesus taking our punishment?

If you believe that sinners will go to hell and suffer for eternity you have an even bigger problem with the doctrine of Christ "paying the price". Is Jesus suffering in hell for all eternity right now? No he isn't. So how can anyone claim he has taken the punishment for us?

It seems to me that at the very most, Jesus only got a taste of that punishment.

So has Jesus really taken our punishment for us? If yes, how can we claim that to be the case?

[JehovahsWitness]

Your assumption and claim is that Adam and Eve acted in a rebellion manner in their exercise of agency. I do not think that you have evidence to support your claims.

I have already presented supporting evidence for my conclusions regarding Adam and Eve rebelling. Since I can see no counterargument I have nothing to add.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 472#976472


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Did the punishment fit the crime committed in Eden?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 992#848992

Why did God allow Adam and Eve to disobey him?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 917#389917

[Revelations won]

Dear Zzyzx,

You asked me to respond to your questions in bold

Obvious to whom?

My answer: Your response of Sept. 22 seems to answer your own question.


Exactly how were A&E supposedly married?

My response: Adam & Eve were married by one having the proper priesthood authority and keys (the same power and keys as Christ gave unto Peter) wherein lies the power to seal on earth and in heaven.

Who performed the ceremony (or whatever required to make official and authorized them living together and reproducing)?

My answer: I do not know who the authorized person was who performed the marriage ceremony. The biblical account does not reveal this detail. (You should recall that the Book of Genesis covers God’s dealings with man covering several thousand years in just 78 pages! I am sure that at some future time we will those interesting details brought forth.

We should remember that it was in the Garden of Eden that God gave unto man the mighty power of agency. The account is very clear that Adam & Eve had no knowledge of “good and evil�. This knowledge was gained ONLY after they had partaken of the fruit.

It was then and only then that their eyes were opened to enable them to discern between good and evil.

Some falsely argue that their choice was an act of rebellion. My take is that this was impossible until after they had partaken the fruit of “the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

This position is further supported by The Lord God himself as found in:

Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold the man has become as on of us, to know good and evil...

Now this raises a very interesting question. Is this how god himself gained his knowledge of “good and evil�?

I there anything in recorded Holy Writ that might indicate this to be the case?


Evidence?

My Answer: I think I have answered that in the previous answer.

Kind regards,
RW

[Zzyzx]

.

Exactly how were A&E supposedly married?

My response: Adam & Eve were married by one having the proper priesthood authority and keys (the same power and keys as Christ gave unto Peter) wherein lies the power to seal on earth and in heaven.

According to the tale, A&E were the first people created.

HOW could there have been someone with ‘proper priesthood authority and keys’ to perform their marriage?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 63 by Revelations won]

WAS JESUS PUNISHED FOR OUR SINS?

ISAIAH 53:5

But he was pierced for our transgression; He was crushed for our errors. He bore the punishment for our peace, and because of his wounds we were healed.

There is generally a fundamental misunderstanding of the ransom because many do not grasp the notion of atonement . When the bible says Christ "bore the punishment", "bore our sins", "died for our sins" ect ... it means his death atoned for them. The word "atonement" probably stems from the Hebrew Kapharʹ “to cover,� “wipe off" (think of wiping a blackboard clean of chalk marks), while punishment refers to the retribution for a transgression.


WAS CHRIST BEING PUNISHED

Notice Isaiah in poetic terms states Jesus bore/experienced the punishment, not that he (Jesus) was punished. Its the difference between paying for a crashed car or paying for crashing a car; the first is punishment, the second a charitable act (although the price is the same). All this is not mere semantics because YHWH is a God of absolute justice. Thus God never punishes the innocent, does not punish one person for someone elses crime and he does not punish in retrospect ("I know you are going to sin so I'll punish you now"). What He can and does do however, is accept a sacrifice, or payment in advance to overlook inevitable damages already incurred.

To illustrate A family head drives drunk and crashes the family car. This act will have disastrous effects on the family. He may be jailed and the family loses their main breadwinner, the children may now have to walk to school, worse one of the children may have been injured suffering a lifelong handicap. Another child may tragically have been killed. The father has been punished, he's gone to jail, but who is going to "pay for", carry or remove the painful consequences of the the fathers transgression?

In the same way Jesus was not "punished" for us, like a whipping boy taking the beating instead of the another, he carried, paid for, rectified the painful effects of a previous transgression. Allowing God to forgive/overlook/ disregard one of the worst consequences of Adamic sin, human inability to perfectly keep God's law. Jesus death allowed Jewish Christians to be released from the curse of trangressing the Mosaic law, and it provided the legal basis by which all human sin could (instead of leading to eternal death) be forgiven, in this sense he bore or took onto himself "our punishment".


JW




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Was Christ punished for the sins we commit? [this post]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 061#981061

Are Adam's children being punished for HIS Sin?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 280#381280

What can we learn from the atonement animal sacrifices under the law?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 230#906230

Is there a difference between "having someone killed" and "accepting a sacrifice"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 904#980904

Go to other posts related to

JESUS CHRIST, THE ORIGINAL SIN and ... RANSOM SACRIFICE

[Revelations won]

Hi Zz,

Yes I would agree that Adam and Eve were the first pertaining to this earth.

I choose to understand a far expanded view and perspective.Our little earth may be a only one of millions of earths like ours.

Perhaps you have never considered this view before? If you can count all of the worlds created in this massive universe, perhaps then and only then would your eyes be opened to see and understand the limitless magnitude of all God's creations.

Kind regards,
RW

[Zzyzx]

.

Exactly how were A&E supposedly married?

Adam & Eve were married by one having the proper priesthood authority and keys (the same power and keys as Christ gave unto Peter) wherein lies the power to seal on earth and in heaven.

According to the tale, A&E were the first people created.

HOW could there have been someone with ‘proper priesthood authority and keys’ to perform their marriage?

Yes I would agree that Adam and Eve were the first pertaining to this earth.

I choose to understand a far expanded view and perspective.Our little earth may be a only one of millions of earths like ours.

Is this to suggest that A&E were married by someone from another planet?

Perhaps you have never considered this view before?

Of course – I have never even thought about astronomy. All the way through graduate school in sciences and never heard about the universe. I am certainly fortunate to have someone here point out what I have overlooked all these years.

Any other foolish personal remarks?

If you can count all of the worlds created in this massive universe,

I decline the invitation to count ‘worlds’ in the universe. Feel free, however, to make your own count.

BTW, does information about the composition of the universe come through science or theology? Does the Bible provide information about 'other worlds'? References? Citations?

perhaps then and only then would your eyes be opened to see and understand the limitless magnitude of all God's creations.

Which of the thousands of ‘gods’ worshiped, loved, feared, and fought over by humans created the universe?

What verifiable evidence assures that the universe was created by ‘gods’?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 71 by JehovahsWitness]

That whole ransom theology and Jesus willingly sacrificing himself to that end seems more reasonable explanation than his taking our punishment for us. But doesn't that whole ransom scenario depend on the existence of a literal Adam and Eve, and a literal fall in the Garden narrative? How dependable is that in the real world? Any scientific support for Adam and Eve and them being tempted by a talking snake?

Is it wise to base a whole theology (and one's life, for that matter) on a myth, as Paul seems to have done, and it seems JWs and conventional Christians are doing?

Yes, myth often has it's own poetic lesson to impart, but when taken literally, they tend to make zealots of us.

[JehovahsWitness]

Is it wise to base a whole theology (and one's life, for that matter) on a myth, [...]?

No that would be foolish. Do you believe that Edenic account is a myth?



JW

[Elijah John]

Is it wise to base a whole theology (and one's life, for that matter) on a myth, [...]?

No that would be foolish. Do you believe that Genesis the Edenic account is a myth?



JW

Not all of Genesis, but a lot of it is, I believe, myth. Especially the Edenic account. Beyond "in the beginning, God created...", Why would you believe otherwise?

What makes you so certain that the Adam and Eve story is a solid foundation upon which to build theologies, religions and lives?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 76 by Elijah John]

Yes I caught myself and edited for precision but you'd already answered, so you believe Adam and Eve are mythical and the account if them eating from the forbidden fruit is mythical (in reality it never happened)? Is that right?