Should the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial carving be removed?

Debate and discussion on racism and related issues

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
otseng
Savant
Posts: 18576
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Has thanked: 146 times
Been thanked: 212 times
Contact:

Should the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial carving be removed?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

Rueters wrote:
The world's largest Confederate Monument faces renewed calls for removal

Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial, a nine-story-high bas-relief sculpture carved into a sprawling rock face northeast of Atlanta, is perhaps the South's most audacious monument to its pro-slavery legacy still intact.

Despite long-standing demands for the removal of what many consider a shrine to racism, the giant depiction of three Confederate heroes on horseback still towers ominously over the Georgia countryside, protected by state law.
Is the carving a shrine to racism?
Should the carving be removed?

koko

Re: Should the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial carving be removed?

Post #41

Post by koko »

Image



Honoring traitors is treason. Therefore, all Confederate memorials need to be removed.

User avatar
Mithrae
Prodigy
Posts: 4268
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:33 am
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 87 times
Been thanked: 169 times

Re: Should the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial carving be removed?

Post #42

Post by Mithrae »

[Replying to koko in post #41]

As our uncivil former friend pointed out, whatever else they may have been they obviously weren't traitors - weren't even tried as such, let alone being found guilty!

Bust Nak
Savant
Posts: 9459
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:03 am
Location: Planet Earth
Has thanked: 117 times
Been thanked: 182 times

Re: Should the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial carving be removed?

Post #43

Post by Bust Nak »

[Replying to Mithrae in post #42]

Guilty verdict from a trial is the defining metric for being a traitor?

User avatar
Mithrae
Prodigy
Posts: 4268
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:33 am
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 87 times
Been thanked: 169 times

Re: Should the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial carving be removed?

Post #44

Post by Mithrae »

Bust Nak wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:45 am [Replying to Mithrae in post #42]

Guilty verdict from a trial is the defining metric for being a traitor?
The fact that even prosecutors were pretty sure the verdict would be 'not guilty' kind of implies that they weren't guilty of it. It seems strange for a country founded by secession from the British Empire to claim that secession is not legitimate - I've never really understood that.

koko

Re: Should the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial carving be removed?

Post #45

Post by koko »

Mithrae wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:36 pm [Replying to koko in post #41]

As our uncivil former friend pointed out, whatever else they may have been they obviously weren't traitors - weren't even tried as such, let alone being found guilty!


They killed over 600,000 Americans. That sure isn't patriotism. By the way, Benedict Arnold wasn't convicted of treason in a court of law in the USA. But I doubt anyone would deny he was a traitor.
Last edited by koko on Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

Bust Nak
Savant
Posts: 9459
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:03 am
Location: Planet Earth
Has thanked: 117 times
Been thanked: 182 times

Re: Should the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial carving be removed?

Post #46

Post by Bust Nak »

Mithrae wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:15 am The fact that even prosecutors were pretty sure the verdict would be 'not guilty' kind of implies that they weren't guilty of it.
I still don't think it matters all that much, what matter is which side one of the war one is on, and to a lesser degree, whether he won or lost.
It seems strange for a country founded by secession from the British Empire to claim that secession is not legitimate - I've never really understood that.
But you can understand that from the point of view of loyalist, the secessionist are traitors to the British Empire, regardless of the finer points of legality?

User avatar
Mithrae
Prodigy
Posts: 4268
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:33 am
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 87 times
Been thanked: 169 times

Re: Should the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial carving be removed?

Post #47

Post by Mithrae »

koko wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:07 am
Mithrae wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:36 pm [Replying to koko in post #41]

As our uncivil former friend pointed out, whatever else they may have been they obviously weren't traitors - weren't even tried as such, let alone being found guilty!
They killed over 600,000 Americans.
In a war which (they would no doubt have argued) the Union started by refusing to negotiate formal diplomatic relations, maintaining military outposts in Confederate territory and then sending a full army when those outposts were captured. The parallel between Lincoln's actions and the Trump government sending forces to defend federal buildings in Portland seems quite interesting, incidentally.
That sure isn't patriotism. By the way, Benedict Arnold wasn't convicted of treason in a court of law in the USA. But I doubt anyone would deny he was a traitor.
From a glance at Wikipedia there was no opportunity to put him on trial; that's a far cry from Union prosecutors declining to try Confederate leaders because of the liklihood of exoneration. The underhanded/betrayal of trust nature of Arnold's actions is also a pretty significant factor, wouldn't you say? From what I've read there was open discussion in the South of the possibility of secession well before it happened, all open and above board.

User avatar
Mithrae
Prodigy
Posts: 4268
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:33 am
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 87 times
Been thanked: 169 times

Re: Should the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial carving be removed?

Post #48

Post by Mithrae »

Bust Nak wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:53 am
Mithrae wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:15 am The fact that even prosecutors were pretty sure the verdict would be 'not guilty' kind of implies that they weren't guilty of it.
I still don't think it matters all that much, what matter is which side one of the war one is on, and to a lesser degree, whether he won or lost.
Surely it matters if presumption of innocence means anything. Trial by jury is required to send someone to prison even for a few years: Koko seems to believe that their very names should be cursed and any who honour them unto the hundredth generation... not only without a trial, but in the knowledge that they likely would have been exonerated had they been tried.
It seems strange for a country founded by secession from the British Empire to claim that secession is not legitimate - I've never really understood that.
But you can understand that from the point of view of loyalist, the secessionist are traitors to the British Empire, regardless of the finer points of legality?
The British Empire wasn't founded on a principle of consent of the governed - the USA was, at least for white male landowners. If the governed withdrew their consent yet were still forced to submit to the government, that's a contradiction of everything the US supposedly stood for. Not the first or last example of such contradictions, admitedly.

koko

Re: Should the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial carving be removed?

Post #49

Post by koko »

Sad that anyone believes that those criminals who killed 600,000+ Americans, promoted slavery, and attempted to destroy this great country should be honored by having this memorial remaining in place. Wouldn't surprise me in the least to learn that some of these same people honor Benedict Arnold and Hitler. I'm sure there would be few and far better in this regard but the fact that anyone would do so should be a shock to anyone who loves the USA which these people obviously don't.

Hopefully, some day people in the south will see that this memorial is without merit and will take it down just like the statues which honored those traitors. As a patriot, I am glad to see so many statues honoring the traitors are being taken down in Washington DC. This is long overdue. All real patriots are also glad to see this long overdue process taking place.

User avatar
Mithrae
Prodigy
Posts: 4268
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:33 am
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 87 times
Been thanked: 169 times

Re: Should the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial carving be removed?

Post #50

Post by Mithrae »

I just saw an amusing thread on another forum suggesting that while Americans are in the process of purifying everything with racist associations, maybe they should look at the
Party of George Wallace.
Party that opposed school integration.
Party that almost stopped the civil rights and voting act.
Party of jim crow.
Party of the KKK.
Party of slavery.
Party of Jefferson Davis himself.

We've already been well-informed that it's not consequence or current events which matter, just the historical associations. And surely the dark historical actions and associations of that party cannot be white-washed by subsequent associations, any more than Stone Mountain can be rehabilitated as an object lesson in cultural insularism and backwardness. That political party must simply be removed, that's all there is to it :lol:

Post Reply