White Guilt. Good or bad?

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White Guilt. Good or bad?

Post #1

Post by AgnosticBoy »

White guilt[1][2][3] is the individual or collective guilt felt by some white people for harm resulting from racist treatment of ethnic minorities such as African Americans and indigenous peoples by other white people, most specifically in the context of the Atlantic slave trade, European colonialism and the legacy of these eras.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_guilt

IN my view, White guilt causes a lot of White Americans to be weak and passive on race issues. This is why when I posted a picture of a Black man with his knee on the neck of a White toddler, not one member (where is Zzyzx?), called it out for what it was... an act of racism against a White toddler. It is because of 'White guilt'.

For debate:
Should White people feel guilty for something that their ancestors did?

Does White guilt make Whites weak on race issues?

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Re: White Guilt. Good or bad?

Post #11

Post by AgnosticBoy »

Mithrae wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:16 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:50 am - for instance BLM has called for defunding the police. Many Whites go along with that even though that is one of the most unreasonable ideas ever.
That was my gut reaction too, but really if you were designing a society from scratch, would you allocate exactly that amount to policing? Do you even know what that dollar figure is? It doesn't seem obviously unreasonable to propose reducing it. If you've got a few million dollars of spare funding, is it best spent on programs like education, job skills courses, income support, local infrastructure, community centres and healthcare - all aimed at reducing the ignorance, alienation and poverty most closely correlated with crime, especially violent crime - or to pour it into strictly punitive policing? And in particular, funding private for-profit prisons seems like one of the most perverse incentives imaginable, creating an interest group specifically tailored to lobby against crime reduction and successful rehabilitation programs!
Correction to your statement:
BLM is not simply calling for redistributing funds but for doing away with cops completely.
Mithrae wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:16 pm Simply going with a gut reaction and virtuously assuming that it must be correct and everyone who disagrees merely bowing to 'white guilt' is pretty much guaranteed to shut down effective communication and uphold the absurdity of the USA for all its wealth and education having the highest incarceration rate in the world.
Is the following interaction between the Minnesota mayor and BLM members "effective communication":


Notice that the mayor was cursed out and pelted with a water bottle (1:00 mark). Do you really want to appease BLM members? keep in mind that the Minnesota mayor was a Democrat. Being nasty and intolerant like BLM members in the video will get you nowhere, and if anything you're going to piss off a whole lot of people.

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Re: White Guilt. Good or bad?

Post #12

Post by Mithrae »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:40 pm
Mithrae wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:16 pm Simply going with a gut reaction and virtuously assuming that it must be correct and everyone who disagrees merely bowing to 'white guilt' is pretty much guaranteed to shut down effective communication and uphold the absurdity of the USA for all its wealth and education having the highest incarceration rate in the world.
Is the following interaction between the Minnesota mayor and BLM members "effective communication":


Notice that the mayor was cursed out and pelted with a water bottle (1:00 mark). Do you really want to appease BLM members? keep in mind that the Minnesota mayor was a Democrat. Being nasty and intolerant like BLM members in the video will get you nowhere, and if anything you're going to piss off a whole lot of people.
I don't know what you think you're seeing there. Less than two weeks after the murder of George Floyd there in Minneapolis - when public outrage and anger must have been at its peak - the mayor was standing alone and unguarded in the midst of a crowd of protestors, talking, being asked questions and having his answers mostly heard. They obviously didn't like his answers, but even so he wasn't "pelted with a water bottle" or touched or harmed in any way at any point. One person did throw a relatively harmless empty water bottle at 2:53, but it fell short and no-one else followed suit. That's pretty much a gold standard for mass protest; no violence or destruction despite the justified anger, both 'sides' expressing themselves and being heard. No, it wasn't an extended debate - it was a protest, and apparently an exemplary one!

And kudos to the mayor too for that stark contrast against uniform lines of riot police staring down peaceful protestors; odds are if Jacob had taken a couple of bodyguards with him, that message of mistrust and power could have encouraged more than a single person to throw water or rotten veggies. In such a charged atmosphere, faceless armed forces are often an incitement to 'bravery' from dumb individuals hidden in an equally faceless crowd, while trust and vulnerability can sometimes encourage respect (however grudging) and restraint. (See also 'naked Athena,' wall of mums etc.)
AgnosticBoy wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:40 pm
Mithrae wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:16 pm That was my gut reaction too, but really if you were designing a society from scratch, would you allocate exactly that amount to policing? Do you even know what that dollar figure is? It doesn't seem obviously unreasonable to propose reducing it. If you've got a few million dollars of spare funding, is it best spent on programs like education, job skills courses, income support, local infrastructure, community centres and healthcare - all aimed at reducing the ignorance, alienation and poverty most closely correlated with crime, especially violent crime - or to pour it into strictly punitive policing? And in particular, funding private for-profit prisons seems like one of the most perverse incentives imaginable, creating an interest group specifically tailored to lobby against crime reduction and successful rehabilitation programs!
Correction to your statement:
BLM is not simply calling for redistributing funds but for doing away with cops completely.
No they are not :roll: Even FoxBusiness doesn't tell people such a simplistic narrative, so I dread to think where you're getting your information from. "The exact intentions of those who rally under the “defund the police” movement exist on a spectrum. Some want a gradual shift in budgets from policing to other types of public services, while others want a complete abolition of police departments and restructuring of public safety."

In the BLM page linked from that Fox article -
https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-defun ... lly-means/
- it's suggested as an example that in some cities even just a 5% reduction in police budgets could double the budgets for public health, and not once is a 100% reduction in police budgets promoted (even in the long term, let alone immediately!). Quite the opposite, it's a fairly open-ended, undogmatic proposal/demand for some transfer of funding from punitive policing to more positive programs, explicitly phrasing the demand (at 2:40 in the video) that "every State, city and municipality spend LESS on law enforcement and incarceration. Period." Not nothing, less. If a five or fifteen or thirty percent reduction in funding for punitive programs turned out to be working well in the first few years - and no doubt many BLM supporters will be pushing for the higher end rather than baby steps - presumably that would be a strong reason for everyone but dogmatic ideologues to support further reductions in funding.

And if in the long term that ends up winding down to zero funding for current models of punitive policing, are you really going to complain? Odds are it won't reach that point (though who can really say where computer/brain interface, genetic manipulation and psychiatric/impulse control technologies will for better or worse take us in the decades to come?) but since literally no-one is calling for a hundred-to-zero defunding of police by Christmas - and relatively few for a hundred-to-zero commitment at all, the initial reaction of those Minneapolis folk in the first weeks of protest notwithstanding - that's pretty much a moot point in any case. Your first best example about 'white guilt' is that people are willing to actually consider spending less on punitive policing? Mon dieu! :shock:

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Re: White Guilt. Good or bad?

Post #13

Post by AgnosticBoy »

[Replying to Mithrae in post #12]

Excuse me but cursing at someone because they disagree with you is not a good way for meaningful discussion.

Also, throwing a water bottle at someone, even if half full is criminal assault. So much for lawful and "peaceful" protest. Clearly your standard for "peaceful" is different and I question if it's dependent on the political side of the protestors. Would you have the same reaction to Republicans behaving the same way towards your favorite Liberal? :-k

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Re: White Guilt. Good or bad?

Post #14

Post by Mithrae »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:06 am Excuse me but cursing at someone because they disagree with you is not a good way for meaningful discussion.
No, but it's a good way to emphatically protest. Which cursing are you talking about anyway? The only thing that caught my ear was when the female questioner emphasized how Jacob's answer would affect their voting next year, but that wasn't cursing at him.
Also, throwing a water bottle at someone, even if half full is criminal assault.
If it hits them and they object, maybe. One idiot in a crowd of thousands of angry protestors is remarkably good.
So much for lawful and "peaceful" protest. Clearly your standard for "peaceful" is different and I question if it's dependent on the political side of the protestors. Would you have the same reaction to Republicans behaving the same way towards your favorite Liberal? :-k
You're not even making a mountain out of a molehill here, it's a damn valley; that was pretty much an exemplary protest in the cirunstances, even including that one guy being a bit dumb. That's one of the few things which could make it any more impressive, if it was a crowd of justifiably angry Republicans with a Democrat politician, or vice versa. Sheesh, scarcely a week ago you responded to my comments arguing in favour of cops who'd pulled a BLM protestor from his wheelchair, but you think you're going to score some kind of cheap debate points by 'questioning' whether my views are driven by politcal loyalties. I guess if you've got nothing better to offer...? :lol: No response to the second half of my post?

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Re: White Guilt. Good or bad?

Post #15

Post by AgnosticBoy »

Mithrae wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:47 pm
Agnostic wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:16 pm
Correction to your statement:
BLM is not simply calling for redistributing funds but for doing away with cops completely.
No they are not :roll: Even FoxBusiness doesn't tell people such a simplistic narrative, so I dread to think where you're getting your information from. "The exact intentions of those who rally under the “defund the police” movement exist on a spectrum. Some want a gradual shift in budgets from policing to other types of public services, while others want a complete abolition of police departments and restructuring of public safety."
My point is still valid. BLm members have advocated for NO police. Refer to the emphasis I added to your own source.

Also, read up on the Autonomous Zone created in Seattle and how they did not allow any police in.


From BLM site:
"We know that police don’t keep us safe —"
source

What an extreme and wrong statement.

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Re: White Guilt. Good or bad?

Post #16

Post by Bust Nak »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:12 pm My point is still valid. BLm members have advocated for NO policefor NO police. Refer to the emphasis I added to your own source.

Also, read up on the Autonomous Zone created in Seattle and how they did not allow any police in.
Do you think those advocating for NO police, have in mind some sort of replacement that are police with another label?
From BLM site:
"We know that police don’t keep us safe —"

What an extreme and wrong statement.
The link indicates that BLM as a whole are not advocating for NO police. Divesting in police, investing in communities sounds like a good plan.

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Re: White Guilt. Good or bad?

Post #17

Post by Mithrae »

Bust Nak wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:12 pm The link indicates that BLM as a whole are not advocating for NO police. Divesting in police, investing in communities sounds like a good plan.
It's clearly not "one of the most unreasonable ideas ever" as AgnosticBoy claimed, that's for sure. Quite the opposite, some would say that failing to radically rethink the system which has given the USA the highest rate of police killing civilians and highest imprisonment rate in the world is the obviously unreasonable course! If the fact that people are willing to rethink that system is the best example of "white guilt" we've got, it's pretty safe to say that we can put this topic to bed now.

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