The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

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AgnosticBoy
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The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #1

Post by AgnosticBoy »

Minorities, esp. BLM, would have you believe that the police are the problem. They are not. Everything about investing in good education and community can be done without abolishing the police. Blaming the police is just scapegoating.

Do a few bad cops make all police bad?

Can we fix the societal ills of minority population without abolishing the police? Why have plenty of Blacks found success in spite of current police funding?

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Re: The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #71

Post by AgnosticBoy »

After taking some time off from this forum, I still don't see any evidence to convince me that there is a systemic racism that is holding black people back.

Yes, racism still exist today, but that is not enough to hold Blacks in poverty. It doesn't take Blacks being hired as much or making the SAME or GREATER salary than Whites to get out of poverty. Those small differences do NOT account for Black poverty. LACK of education accounts for Black poverty way more than any other factor.

So what if a White college grad makes 5,000 more than a Black grad? That doesn't mean the Black grad will be poor but rather it means the Black grad won't be as rich as the White grad. Then again with further EDUCATION, the Black grad can start their own business?!

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Re: The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #72

Post by Bust Nak »

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #71]

It seems you have a rather exclusive idea of what "holding back" means if a Black grad are being paid less than a White grad due to racism doesn't qualify as being held back.

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Re: The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #73

Post by AgnosticBoy »

Bust Nak wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:39 am [Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #71]

It seems you have a rather exclusive idea of what "holding back" means if a Black grad are being paid less than a White grad due to racism doesn't qualify as being held back.
It's not holding them back from success or keeping them in poverty.


I also recommend Blacks start their own business so they can write themselves a bigger paycheck. That also takes EDUCATION by the way.

koko

Re: The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #74

Post by koko »

No lack of education here as once again it is the police that is the problem:


A Georgia man was fatally shot by a state trooper. His family's attorney says he was on his way to the store to get his wife a soda

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/17/us/georg ... _expansion


Former Trooper Jacob Thompson, 27, has since been fired by the Georgia Department of Public Safety and arrested on felony murder and aggravated assault charges in Lewis' death, according to a news release from the Georgia Bureau of Investigation.
Thompson's attorney did not respond to multiple requests for comment over the weekend.
The investigation of the shooting comes as protesters across the US have called for the defunding of police departments and widespread reform after the deaths of George Floyd and other Black people killed by police.
It also comes just over two months after the killing of Rayshard Brooks by an Atlanta police officer in a Wendy's parking lot. The officer has been charged with murder and is out on $500,000 bond. Another officer has been charged for his actions in the case.


... Several complaints received after arrest
No video from the incident has been released. Georgia State Patrol's website says it was the "first agency to equip all of its patrol cars with dash-mounted cameras" and that each trooper has specialized training in the Pursuit Intervention Technique -- or PIT maneuver.
CNN has put in an open records request to DPS for Thompson's personnel file and other items related to the investigation.
Johnson said that since Lewis' death his office has received more than a dozen complaints about Thompson and another trooper that patrols the same area.
"Multiple complaints from multiple individuals and, you know, the commonality among them are that they're black or brown," Johnson said.




Criminal cops - that's the problem. Always.

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Re: The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #75

Post by Bust Nak »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:26 am It's not holding them back from success or keeping them in poverty.
Like I said, you have a rather exclusive idea of what holding back is, merely making things more difficult would count as holding back in my book. May I suggest another term? Racism does not prohibit Black people from success.

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Re: The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #76

Post by AgnosticBoy »

Bust Nak wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:32 am
AgnosticBoy wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:26 am It's not holding them back from success or keeping them in poverty.
Like I said, you have a rather exclusive idea of what holding back is, merely making things more difficult would count as holding back in my book. May I suggest another term? Racism does not prohibit Black people from success.
That fits my point. Racism exists but in our time it is not holding Blacks from success. Therefore, using it as a reason or cause for poverty is an excuse. There are just too many Black people who have lifted themselves up and out of poverty by using education to say otherwise.

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Re: The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #77

Post by Mithrae »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:47 pm That fits my point. Racism exists but in our time it is not holding Blacks from success. Therefore, using it as a reason or cause for poverty is an excuse. There are just too many Black people who have lifted themselves up and out of poverty by using education to say otherwise.
You could use the same argument if a certain percentage of black people were simply lynched when they turn 18: "Well some of them are going on to be really successful!" The reality of the several forms of discrimination which I, Bust Nak and even you (inadvertently) have highlighted - in educational funding disparities, in disproportionate effects from punitive policing, in ongoing informal redlining, in business hiring discrimination etc. - is that for a given, equal level of effort and ability a certain percentage of black people are prevented from achieving material prosperity. Pointing towards the percentage who make it past those obstacles seems just as unreasonable and almost as callous as pointing to the percentage who avoided lynching in bygone days.

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Re: The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #78

Post by historia »

koko wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:15 pm
historia wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:31 pm
koko wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:47 pm
Hundreds of schools are closing nationwide because tens of thousands have had the same experience.
Tens of thousands of student amount to one-quarter of one percent of all American college graduates.

Your argument doesn't account for 99.97% of all college graduates, which is why it is nonsensical.
The majority of people don't get mugged or shot dead on the street. To most rational thinking people that still doesn't make it an acceptible practice.
Nobody is suggesting that the experiences of these students is a good thing. Rather, the point is that the anecdotal data you are offering simply doesn't demonstrate that the statistics above are inaccurate.
koko wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:15 pm
Still want to believe the nonsense you are spewing? Go ahead. Persist in your myths. Send kids to college, let them build up hugmongous debts and live lives of utter despair. Who knows? Maybe a few just might commit suicide. But if they do, remember that their blood is your hands, not in mine.
Again, just so we're all clear, the "nonsense" you think I'm "spewing" is the simple observation that college graduates make, on average, more than those without a college education.

To say that someone noting this fact now means they have "blood on their hands" is bordering on hysteria. This is not a serious argument.
koko wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:15 pm
There is something kinda funny where a privileged suburbanite like you tells someone who lives in a ghetto in dire poverty that somehow more education is so "beneficial". I wonder if the irony has been lost on some of the readers here.
First of all, you don't know where I live. Second, this is not irony. And, third, if you have to resort to attacking me personally, you've already lost the debate.

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Re: The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #79

Post by historia »

Mithrae wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:39 pm
You're not answering my questions/objection; you haven't shown any policies and practices in place which Jewish Americans overcame to achieve success. That there was systemic racism against Jews in the earlier part of the 20th century I'm sure we can agree on
Good, because that is the timeframe when American Jews overcame systemic racism.

See Nathan Glazer, "Social Characteristics of American Jews, 1654–1954," The American Jewish Year Book (1955), pp. 3-41, in which he notes that, despite facing practices that barred their entry to elite universities, some professions, and many businesses, Jewish immigrants had largely achieved economic success in America by the 1930s, driven mostly by education:
Glazer wrote:
The Jews were scarcely distinguishable from the huge mass of depressed immigrants, illiterate and impoverished, that was pouring into the United States at a rate of 1,000,000 a year before the first World War.
And yet:
Glazer wrote:
"In the lower schools," an observer for the Industrial Commission writes in 1900, "the Jewish children are the delight of their teachers for cleverness at their books, obedience, and general good conduct."

. . .

Even more significant as a sign of Jewish preparation for the future was the large numbers that were going to college. When the Immigration Commission surveyed seventy-seven institutions in 1908, no less than 8.5 per cent of the male student body was composed of first-and-second generation Jews (Jews at this time made up about 2 per cent of the American population).

Jewish students already made up 13 per cent of those studying for law, 18 per cent of those preparing for pharmacy . . . In the early 'Thirties about one-eighth of the entering classes in American medical schools consisted of Jews; it was only the institution of a subtle and extensive discriminatory system in most medical schools that reduced this percentage in the late 'Thirties.

. . .

In Detroit, the Jewish median income in 1935 was more than $100 more than non-Jewish median income . . . We have gone into such detail on Detroit, first, because we have two excellent studies of the Jews of that city during the Depression, but equally important, because it is a representative Jewish community

. . .

What has happened, in effect, is that the great Jewish economic advantage, already perfectly obvious in the 'Thirties, because of superior education, and a higher proportion of self-employed persons, has borne fruit in the fifteen years of prosperity since 1940.
In other words, Jews were already flourishing in the United States even before the legislative and social reforms in the 1950's and 60's tore down many of the hurdles that stood in their way.
Mithrae wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:39 pm
historia wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:37 pm
But consider Japanese Americans, who are not a predominantly immigrant community -- nearly 3/4 are native born. They suffered some of the worst legal discrimination of any ethnic group in the United States (Asian or otherwise) in the 20th Century. And yet, they too have a have a higher average income and lower unemployment rate than whites. (They also exceed the average for all Asian Americans.)
According to Wikipedia, as early as "1907, the Gentlemen's Agreement between the governments of Japan and the United States ended immigration of Japanese unskilled workers, but permitted the immigration of businessmen, students and spouses of Japanese immigrants already in the US." Immigration from Japan was essentially halted in 1924 and when it resumed in the 1950s it was presumably under a similar framework of prioritizing wealthier and more educated folk and their immediate families. Again according to Wikipedia there were almost 283,000 Japanese immigrants from 1950 to 2000 - many of whom would go on to have children and grandchildren - against a total Japanese population in 2000 of 773,000, so it seems likely that the fraction of Japanese Americans descended only from immigrants in the period of unskilled migration prior to 1907 would be very small.
Sorry, but this analysis seems a bit confused.

Japanese immigration to America prior to 1907 consisted overwhelmingly of unskilled male laborers. The 'Gentlemen's agreement' of 1907 barred both skilled and unskilled Japanese workers from immigrating to the US, but allowed the wives, parents, and children of the earlier male laborers to come until 1924 (it also allowed a small number of students and businessmen, but these were minor exceptions). And the limited immigration that resumed between 1950-65 was also largely Japanese women, including many wives of American soldiers.

See Daisuke Akiba, "Japanese Americans" in Asian Americans: Contemporary Trends and Issues (2005). He notes, rightly:
Akiba wrote:
Three major waves of immigration from Japan to the United States took place between the 1880s and the 1960s, and the prevalence of Japanese immigration to the United States has diminished since then. Reflecting this history, Japanese Americans are more similar to Jewish, Italian, and other white ethnic groups than to other Asian ethnic groups in that a large majority of them are third- or higher-generation Americans with conspicuous evidence of assimilation. Yet, not being white, Japanese Americans continue to face discrimination in American society and are not allowed to fully merge into the mainstream American society.
Japanese Americans are not principally descended from recent, educated immigrants like several other Asian American communities. Rather, like Jews and most southern and eastern European Americans, they are principally the decedents of uneducated laborers.
Mithrae wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:39 pm
But even if we were to assume that systemic racism against Japanese people continued to this very day
Wait, why is it necessary to "assume" this? If we are taking the concept of systemic racism seriously -- and, if only for the sake of discussion in this thread, I think we should -- then, by definition, it affects Asian Americans too.

Consider, for example:
Mithrae wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:39 pm
It seems quite difficult for laws to prevent unacknowledged, informal biases against hiring black people for more lucrative positions, for example; as Bust Nak and I have shown, that's been an ongoing form of discrimination for decades, right down to the present.
That same Harvard study you and Bust Nak referenced earlier shows an identical experience for Asian Americans.

Back to your point:
Mithrae wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:39 pm
But even if we were to assume that systemic racism against Japanese people continued to this very day, their success in overcoming it would be the success of a non-representative demographic skewed towards those already more likely to succeed on the basis of existing family wealth, intelligence and prior education/skills. Obviously that wouldn't automatically translate into a valid assumption that black Americans can easily follow suit.
Again, your argument here appears to be based in large part on a faulty historical analysis. But, even if we grant the overarching point, this is not critical to my argument.

I am contesting Tcg's sweeping assertion that "education is not a solution for systemic racism." In challenging that claim, I merely need to show that it can be a solution, not that it has to be "easy" or that there aren't other (potentially better) solutions.
Mithrae wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:39 pm
It's not that education "uniquely wouldn't work" if it were attained at the same rate as Asian immigrants, for example; it's the fact that you haven't yet produced the magic wand which will make this theoretical concept a reality!
Before we rush ahead to policy prescriptions, I want to first deal with Tcg's argument -- such that it is, he ran away from the debate without explicating it -- that education doesn't even address the problem in principle.

His (or perhaps rather Zzyzx's) contention was that, even if we limit our analysis to those who have already achieved a post-secondary education, blacks have a lower median income than whites. And that this, in and of itself, means "education is not a solution for systemic racism."

But, if that argument is sound, then why doesn't the higher income of Asian Americans with a post-secondary education, in and of itself, mean education is a solution for systemic racism? Clearly, this level of analysis is too simple by half.

Can we first agree that (a) Tcg and Zzyzx's argument is unsound and (b) education, in principal, can be a solution to systemic racism (as the examples of Jewish and Japanese Americans attest)?
Mithrae wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:39 pm
historia wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:37 pm
Even if individuals harboring personal racial animus toward an ethnic group are "seething under the surface," once a group has gained access to institutions and resources that put them ahead, U.S. law and improving social attitudes make it increasingly difficult for racists to hold back that group. That is effectively a solution.
That seems to be a remarkably blase attitude towards the inequality of opportunity being discussed here, the fact that black Americans would need to work and learn harder even to draw alongside the national averages.
You seem to be reading more into this comment than is intended. I'm simply noting that the economic and social gains made by, for example, Asian and Jewish Americans, have been real and persistent, and therefore are not easily reversed.
Mithrae wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:39 pm
More emphasis on education undoubtedly is worthwhile; but you haven't offered any real reason to suppose that education alone is a plausible route to overcoming black disadvantages, and even less so that it should eclipse efforts to produce real solutions by exposing and countering actual racism and systemic disadvantages.
Such as?

And, also, what about Hispanics?

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Re: The Police are not the problem, lack of Education is

Post #80

Post by Mithrae »

historia wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:53 pm
Mithrae wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:39 pm More emphasis on education undoubtedly is worthwhile; but you haven't offered any real reason to suppose that education alone is a plausible route to overcoming black disadvantages, and even less so that it should eclipse efforts to produce real solutions by exposing and countering actual racism and systemic disadvantages.
Such as?

And, also, what about Hispanics?
Oversights or shortcomings in your position aren't fixed by asking for my solution. I haven't claimed to have a solution for systemic racism; you have, but your claim is highly exaggerated at best, a plausible route to at least mitigating some of the disparities facing black (and yes, to a lesser extent hispanic) Americans, and an unproven but theoretically possible option for black Americans facing inequalities of opportunity to put in enough extra effort to fully jump over the hurdles facing them, rather than having them removed. I'm fairly sure that only Koko has downplayed or dismissed the value of education; but the very thread title and opening post explicitly suggest that only education matters, although neither you nor AgnosticBoy have offered any real clarity on what policies - if any - you would propose to change current educational trends. To answer your question about TCG's assertion in that context, I do agree that 'education is not a solution' to systemic racism. Even were the prescription not so vague it does not address the actual problems, even in principle; it might at most, given sufficient extra effort, overcome them at least for a time.

But as for efforts to produce real solutions by exposing and countering actual racism and systemic disadvantages, a few possibilities more or less off the top of my head would be:

- Black and poor Americans are disproportionately affected by gun violence both directly and in terms of stressed, on-edge police over-reactions. You can't be successful if you're dead; so introduce better gun control laws.

- Black and poor Americans are disproportionately affected by police brutality specifically and punitive policing/justice systems generally. You can't be successful if you're imprisoned, and at a vast disadvantage if your father or mother are imprisoned; so put more emphasis on funding for jobseeker training and financial support to mitigate crimes of desperation, fund local infrastructure, parks, community centres etc, social workers (particularly integrated within police forces), decriminalize if not legalize marijuana and remove prison sentences for minor drug offences, put a stop to 'warrior training' for regular police forces and more strictly discipline instances of brutality etc. etc...

- Black and poor Americans are disproportionately affected by district-based funding of local schools. You're at a big disadvantage for future prospects of higher education or lucrative employment if you've had sub-par early education; so one way or another ensure that schools in poorer districts receive the same educational quality as those in otherwise comparable wealthier districts, with possible additional services such as counseling and nutritious meals based on need. Voucher programs allowing parents to transfer say half of their child's allocated public funding to private schooling seem like a good idea.

- Black Americans are especially affected disproportionately by the apparent continuation of informal redlining in banks' mortgage lending, as possibly the biggest ongoing component in household net wealth which is probably the single biggest disparity of all:
Image
Both you and your children are at a big disadvantage for achieving or maintaining success if you can't build a comparable wealth base for emergencies, setbacks, retirement and inheritance; so stricter monitoring of banks' practices including disclosure of their lending algorithms, and introduction of some kind of high-wealth tax to reduce disparities would seem appropriate.


Those are a few of the issues which have been highlighted in this thread, blithely dismissed by AgnosticBoy's 'education is the solution' mantra with little apparent substance even behind that opinion, let alone addressing the various other issues in play. My off-hand ideas surely aren't perfect, but they are at least something!

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