Bad apples...

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Elijah John
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Bad apples...

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

"One bad apple does not spoil the whole bunch".

It would be racist and wrong to dismiss all black people as violent thugs for the actions of a few. So why do the "protesters" and rioters think it's justified to commit violence against the police and slander them because of the actions of a few bad cops?

Isn't that also a form of prejudice?
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Re: Bad apples...

Post #2

Post by Bust Nak »

[Replying to Elijah John in post #1]

Because cops belongs to institution that is at best is dragging its feet in combatting racism and misconduct within its ranks.

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Mithrae
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Re: Bad apples...

Post #3

Post by Mithrae »

- Eric Garner (unarmed man killed by police with an illegal choke-hold, no criminal conviction or even indictments)
- John Crawford III (shot and killed by police in Walmart while carrying a BB gun sold by the store, no criminal indictments)
- Tamir Rice (twelve year old killed by police while carrying a toy gun, no criminal indictments)
- Freddie Grey (killed by police from back injuries being tossed around in the back of a transport van in violation of regulations that suspects should be secured, no criminal convictions)
- Philando Castille (shot and killed by police in front of his girlfriend and her four year old daughter during a traffic stop, no criminal convictions)
- Elijah Mcclain (unarmed man killed by police chokehold/sedatives after a 911 call indicating the likelihood that he posed no danger to anyone, no criminal convictions or indictments)

These are a few of the more noteworthy extra-judicial killings of black people by police. Presumably if these were "just a few bad apples" there would actually be some kind of judicial consequence for the killings.

Elijah John
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Re: Bad apples...

Post #4

Post by Elijah John »

Mithrae wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:17 am - Eric Garner (unarmed man killed by police with an illegal choke-hold, no criminal conviction or even indictments)
- John Crawford III (shot and killed by police in Walmart while carrying a BB gun sold by the store, no criminal indictments)
- Tamir Rice (twelve year old killed by police while carrying a toy gun, no criminal indictments)
- Freddie Grey (killed by police from back injuries being tossed around in the back of a transport van in violation of regulations that suspects should be secured, no criminal convictions)
- Philando Castille (shot and killed by police in front of his girlfriend and her four year old daughter during a traffic stop, no criminal convictions)
- Elijah Mcclain (unarmed man killed by police chokehold/sedatives after a 911 call indicating the likelihood that he posed no danger to anyone, no criminal convictions or indictments)

These are a few of the more noteworthy extra-judicial killings of black people by police. Presumably if these were "just a few bad apples" there would actually be some kind of judicial consequence for the killings.
So how does that address the OP? Those are a few bad apple cops. How in the world does that justify the systemic disrespect and violence against police? How in the world does that justify escalation by resisting lawful arrests? (the ones you did not list)
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Mithrae
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Re: Bad apples...

Post #5

Post by Mithrae »

Elijah John wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:47 pm
Mithrae wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:17 am These are a few of the more noteworthy extra-judicial killings of black people by police. Presumably if these were "just a few bad apples" there would actually be some kind of judicial consequence for the killings.
So how does that address the OP? Those are a few bad apple cops.
You haven't substantiated that claim. However regrettable, it's not all that surprising if someone manages to become a cop despite being the kind of person, somewhere deep inside, who would choke an unarmed man until his heart stops beating. That's a "bad apple." But for incidents like that to pass by without serious consequence or punishment, again and again and again, is extremely surprising unless it's more than just a few bad apples.
Elijah John wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:47 pm How in the world does that justify the systemic disrespect and violence against police?
Not for the first time your biases are showing; when it's cops killing black people you assume that it's a few bad apples, but when it's people advocating that black lives matter suddenly it's "systemic disrespect and violence." Why not use the same rhetoric in both cases, or better yet why not try to avoid both downplaying killing of black people and exaggerating violence against police?
Elijah John wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:47 pm How in the world does that justify escalation by resisting lawful arrests? (the ones you did not list)
If a person is innocent of any crime - and most of us in civilized society do generally uphold a presumption of innocence - the question should be under what circumstances (if any) does an agent of the state gain the right to forcefully restrain, humiliate and severely inconvenience them with the very real associated risks of injury, trauma, wrongful conviction and even death? Most of us probably acknowledge that there are some circumstances in which warrantless on-the-spot arrests are necessary, and even in some cases that extreme measures be taken to restrain the arrestee; granting police the power to decide if and when those (very rare) circumstances apply is an enormous investment of trust, and for the system to keep working peacefully that trust needs to be seen and acknowledged as well-deserved. On the other hand, it really wouldn't be terribly surprising if that trust and power went to their heads for a significant fraction of cops, and absent careful oversight ended up being abused far more than necessary or appropriate. "Lawful arrests" is a nice phrase which doesn't exactly carry a lot of weight when shooting a twelve year old boy with a toy gun is considered a lawful killing!

"Resisting arrest" in the form of running away, refusing to kiss the pavement, verbally protesting or requesting an explanation/identification are not 'escalation' by any stretch of the imagination. Even being riled up enough to shove or hit someone is not a capital crime. So yes, there are probably hundreds of other examples of wrongful killing we could add to the list. The rate at which American cops kill American civilians is really quite shocking compared to other countries:
USFPS1.jpg
USFPS1.jpg (26.16 KiB) Viewed 872 times
Does that look like the work of "a few bad apples" to you? An excess of three killings per million citizens above Canada and Australia* would be a thousand per year; and with that many interactions resulting in apparently needless deaths, one dreads to imagine how many involve 'merely' harassment, wrongful arrest, excessive force or brutality!



* Edit: Graph is from some research in 2016; without checking I'm not sure exactly what years the data are from, but looking at some more recent data suggests that while the American rate remains around 3.4 per million (33.5 per ten million) and Germany etc. around 0.13 per million, Canada and Australia have shifted worryingly in the American direction (though still with far lower rates).

koko

Re: Bad apples...

Post #6

Post by koko »

Elijah John wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:54 am "One bad apple does not spoil the whole bunch".

It would be racist and wrong to dismiss all black people as violent thugs for the actions of a few. So why do the "protesters" and rioters think it's justified to commit violence against the police and slander them because of the actions of a few bad cops?

Isn't that also a form of prejudice?


You are again posing a leading question. Can you present evidence that the protesters and rioters are claiming that committing violence against armed police and slandering them is ''justified''? What percentage of these people are doing that?

I agree that one bad apple doesn't spoil the whole bunch. This is why cops should not engage in selective enforcement of the law by assuming black teens are "thugs" and should be subjected to stereotypes. Let them apply the law to everyone equally under all circumstances. Otherwise that is a form of prejudice as well. Links to selective enforcement have previously been posted here.

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historia
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Re: Bad apples...

Post #7

Post by historia »

Elijah John wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:54 am
"One bad apple does not spoil the whole bunch".
It's interesting that you chose to phrase it this way, as traditionally the saying is: "One bad apple spoils the whole barrel" -- in other words, the exact opposite of what you wrote.

That proverb captures the observation that even a single bad actor can ruin the reputation and standing of an organization, just as the rot from a single apple can, in fact, spread to a whole barrel of apples.

If you want to better understand how the actions of just a handful of law enforcement officers can turn an entire community against the police, I'd highly recommend this video: Why Some People Hate Cops.

The creator is David Woods, an evangelical Christian apologist, best known for his (often sharp) critiques of Islam. He's religiously and politically quite conservative, but grew up on the wrong side of the law in a trailer park in West Virginia, and spent time in prison before converting to Christianity and going on to earn a Ph.D. in Philosophy.

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Re: Bad apples...

Post #8

Post by Purple Knight »

People choose to be cops. They choose to belong to that organisation.

/thread

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Re: Bad apples...

Post #9

Post by nobspeople »

Elijah John wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:54 am "One bad apple does not spoil the whole bunch".

It would be racist and wrong to dismiss all black people as violent thugs for the actions of a few. So why do the "protesters" and rioters think it's justified to commit violence against the police and slander them because of the actions of a few bad cops?

Isn't that also a form of prejudice?
I believe it's wrong to use a few to pass judgements on the whole, no matter the race, gender, profession, political affiliation, on and on and on.
I also believe everyone does this in some fashion and it will never stop until the human race stops.
I've also noticed certain establishments seem to be OK with painting those that disagree with one point of view in a negative light.
But that's life - no one is perfect and we all have to strive to be better.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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