tam wrote:
There is no reason to think that Ecclesiastes 9:5 is talking about believers and unbelievers.
Ecclesiastes is one of my favorite books of the Bible. It joins with the rest of the Bible's Wisdom Literature (the Psalms, Proverbs, and the Song of Solomon) in being concerned with imparting wisdom and knowledge to the people of God in this life -- "under the sun" -- and teaching them to fear the Lord:
- "Besides being wise, the Preacher also taught the people knowledge, weighing and studying and arranging many proverbs with great care. The Preacher sought to find words of delight, and uprightly he wrote words of truth. The words of the wise are like goads, and like nails firmly fixed are the collected sayings; they are given by one Shepherd. My son, beware of anything beyond these. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh." [Ecclesiastes 12:9-12]
There is no justification for thinking otherwise. This fits with the whole force of Ecclesiastes, which is set out from verses 2 and 3 in chapter 1:
- "Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher, vanity of vanities! All is vanity. What does man gain by all the toil at which he toils under the sun?"
So, the context rather shows
this:
- "This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of people, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. Anyone who is among the living has hope -- even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!" [Ecclesiastes 9:3-4]
Yes, "under the sun," meaning in this physical world, and all will suffer the first death, which is physical. All people, believer or not, have evil in their hearts -- are sinners. Jeremiah says the same thing, that "the heart is deceitful above all things; who can understand it?" Isaiah says the same thing in his way, that "each of us has gone astray, each to his own way." So does Paul in his various epistles in the New Testament. But the writer of Ecclesiastes is saying that even the smallest and most vile among us have hope of salvation.
tam wrote:
(side note: this was before Christ of course, because anyone in Christ who is alive when He returns will not die at all)
Right, but this is beyond the Preacher's point in preaching his sermon (which Ecclesiastes most certainly is). As I said, Solomon is imparting wisdom and knowledge to the people of God in this life -- "under the sun" -- and teaching them to fear the Lord.
tam wrote:
Even their love, their hate, their jealousy have perished. Because, once dead, they know nothing.
Right, from this life under the sun. Ecclesiastes 9:5 cannot contradict Ecclesiastes 4:2-3, and it would if your understanding of 9:5 were correct.
In 4:2-3, Solomon states that he had "thought the dead who are already dead more fortunate than the living who are still alive... (b)ut better than both is he who has not yet been and has not seen the evil deeds that are done under the sun." Thus, he indicates that he would still consider death to be an enemy (which is exactly what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:26) despite its ability to provide relief from the effects of sin under the sun and all earthly suffering.
So what he's saying in 9:5 is that when a person is dead, the opportunities to enjoy things on earth no longer exist.
The book of Ecclesiastes is written specifically from an earthly perspective. The key phrase, repeated throughout the book, is "under the sun," used about thirty times. Solomon is commenting on an earth-bound life, “under the sun,� without God. His conclusion, also repeated throughout the book, is that everything from that perspective is “vanity� or emptiness (Ecclesiastes 1:2). And when a person dies “under the sun,�
the earthly perspective is that it’s over; he is no longer under the sun. There is no more knowledge to give or be given, just a grave to mark his remains. Those who have died have “no further reward�
in this life; they
no longer have the ability to enjoy life like those who are living. Eventually, “even their name is forgotten.�
And then begins the Preacher's exhortation to us:
- "Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do. Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun -- all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom."
In other words, find enjoyment as circumstances allow. Physical life is much superior to physical death, but there is no predicting whether one's life in this world -- under the sun -- will be hard or easy. Therefore, one is advised to enjoy life when circumstances are conducive for it. When godly people do so, they will acknowledge that it is due to God's "approval," or "favor" and thus His gracious provision. Whatever we do, we are to do with all our might... as if for the Lord and not merely for men, as Paul puts it in Colossians 3:23:
- "Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men..."
tam wrote:
If the rest of it didn't make it clear, this last bit should.
It certainly does to me, but to you not so much, apparently. The fact is, you (and at least myth-one) take this verse totally out of the context of Ecclesiastes. What I've written here should make you go, "Oh. OH!!"
Grace and peace to you, Tammy.
