The kingdom of God.

[Checkpoint]

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

[PinSeeker]

So here's the easy-to-follow timeline:

• MILLENNIUM -- REVELATION 20:1-6
  The coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (Acts 2) is the beginning of the millennium of Revelation 20. It is synonymous with the "last days" and what is called the Church Age. Satan has been bound (see explanation above) because of the work of Christ on the cross, His resurrection, and ascension to the right hand of the Father. Over the course of the millennium (Church age), all of the Elect will come to repentance and believe in Christ -- they "came to life and reign with Christ for a thousand years; this is the first resurrection." God builds His Church, His temple, via the Holy Spirit, upon the foundation of the prophets and apostles, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20-22).

• AFTER THE MILLENNIUM, BEFORE CHRIST'S RETURN, THE LOOSING OF SATAN -- REVELATION 20:7-9a
  (through Satan "march[ing] up and surround[ing] the camp of the saints... beloved city)
  At the close of the millennium (Church age) -- Revelation 20:7 reads "when the thousand years are ended," so after all the Elect Gentiles have been brought in and the partial hardening removed from ethnic Israel (again, Romans 11) but just before Jesus's return -- Satan will be "loosed" to make his final, unsuccessful (of course), attempt to deceive the nations. As Jesus says in Mark 13, in those days there will be such tribulation as has never been and never will be, but those days will be cut short for the sake of the Elect, whom God chose.

• CHRIST RETURNS AND DEFEATS SATAN -- REVELATION 20:9b-10
  (from "fire [coming] down from heaven and consum[ing] them")
  Jesus, in His triumphant return, will defeat Satan virtually instantaneously and once and for all. This is the fire coming down from heaven and consuming Satan an his minions in Revelation 20:9b. Satan will be placed under God's judgment for eternity, where they will be "tormented day and night forever and ever," which is to say they will exist eternally in disappointment (to put it mildly) at having chosen themselves over God/Christ. This is his eternal punishment.

• THE JUDGMENT -- REVELATION 20:11-15
  After the defeat of Satan, the Judgment will ensue, as described by Jesus Himself in Matthew 7:21-23 and Matthew 25:31-46. Those on Jesus's proverbial left will follow Satan and his minions into the same eternal punishment, where they will also be placed under God's judgment for eternity, where they will also be "tormented day and night forever and ever," which is to say they will also exist eternally in disappointment (to put it mildly) at having chosen themselves over God/Christ and with no possibility of crossing the affixed "great chasm," as portrayed symbolically by Christ in Luke 16). This is their eternal punishment.

• ETERNITY BEGINS AND LASTS FOR... ETERNITY -- REVELATION 21 - 22:5
  Only the New Heaven and New Earth -- and New Jerusalem and its occupants are in view here, not because Satan and the non-Elect are non-existent, but only not there; they are elsewhere, and remembered no more. They are not present in the New Heaven and New Earth but in the "unquenchable fire," where "their worm does not die" (Mark 9:48) -- again, on the other side of the affixed and impossible-to-cross great chasm, as portrayed symbolically by Christ in Luke 16.

Grace and peace to you.

[onewithhim]

There hasn't been an explanation of how Satan could be destroyed at Jesus' coming at Armageddon and then allowed to come out of the abyss after the thousand years.

Well, it has, but it is unacceptable to JWs (and to most Evangelicals).

The answer is that, as Pinseeker pointed out, the 1000 years is figurative, just as most of Revelation is.

Not only that, although chapter 20 follows chapter 19, it does not follow it in chronological order.

This is not the first, and not the only, chronological variation found in Revelation.

The most obvious and notable one is chapters 11 and 12, which are clearly not in chronological order.

This chronological aspect is the essential ingredient needed to be able to grasp what Revelation 20 is actually about, including what is meant by what is said there about Satan.

We can discuss this if you wish to.

I agree with tam in post 909. She is not a JW, and she gets it. That is commendable. The scripture says plainly: BEFORE the thousand years the Devil is restrained in the "abyss." Then AFTER the thousand years he is let out, and then destroyed in the final squaring off with Jesus and Jehovah. How do you explain this?

[onewithhim]

It seems evident That if DEATH (which is a condition and not an individual) is also thrown into "the lake of fire"it cannot represent a place where one continues to exist but is rather it is figurative of complete destruction.

Well, death is surely a state of being. The first death is physical/temporal, and the second is spiritual/eternal. I agree on "complete destruction," but the concept of what exactly that is is what is debatable. It can be understood in two very different ways of course, but as it is put forth in the Bible by God, only one is correct. "Complete destruction" is also a state of being... existing in complete and utter spiritual ruin, with no possibility of being redeemed. It's very spiritual and eternal.

You will have to ask those that hold to the view that Satan is thrown into the lake of fire but somehow continues to exist after the experience, of someone that holds that view.

Well, it pictures the devil relegated to -- sent to dwell eternally in -- the eternal fire, which is figurative.

Yes, only some understand it correctly. This does not mean anyone is somehow "smarter" than anyone else. But as Jesus says in Matthew 25:46, they "go away into eternal punishment" -- the devil and his angels first, and then all those on Jesus's "left," those who are not members of God's Elect. They go away, they depart. They do not vanish into thin air, they do not cease to exist. There is bounteous Scriptural support for the former, and absolutely no Scriptural support for the latter. God does not and will not annihilate anything that He created good, as He did all of creation -- and surely not what He created in His image, as He did all of mankind -- in Genesis 1.

Grace and peace to all.

I wonder why you say that "eternal punishment" does not include total obliteration. Isn't that the supreme punishment? And it's much more the way a merciful God operates. I have to say that I strongly believe that our God Jehovah would not keep someone alive somewhere when they have no chance of getting out of their suffering. They shoot horses, don't they? Why? So they won't continually suffer. God would not keep a wicked person alive to suffer forever.

When someone is incorrigibly wicked, they are not then "in God's image." God is not wicked. When He created Adam, Adam was sinless and perfect. When Adam turned willfully against Jehovah he ceased to be in the image of God. Jehovah eternally punishes evil people with annihilation so that (1) they won't hurt good people any more, and (2) so that they will just go away into oblivion and not continue to suffer agonizing pain forever.

[PinSeeker]

I wonder why you say that "eternal punishment" does not include total obliteration.

Because it doesn't. See above. The two are antithetical, in direct opposition to each other.

Isn't that the supreme punishment?

One might think, but no. First, 'eternal' means everlasting, of and for eternity, rather than momentary or fleeting. And second, it should be evident that the ultimate punishment is what we might think of as life imprisonment -- enduring that punishment for the balance of one's existence, which itself is a death. That's how it should be viewed.

And it's much more the way a merciful God operates.

Nope. God does not annihilate what He has created, much less what He created "very good," much less what He created in His own image. God is the Creator, not an "un-creator." For God to "un-create" is totally antithetical to Scripture and His character.

I have to say that I strongly believe that our God Jehovah would not keep someone alive somewhere when they have no chance of getting out of their suffering.

Okay, fair enough. But I have to say that though is very limited and short-sighted.

They shoot horses, don't they? Why? So they won't continually suffer. God would not keep a wicked person alive to suffer forever.

LOL! Not a good metaphor... In my opinion, of course...

When someone is incorrigibly wicked, they are not then "in God's image."

What God made in His image does not cease to be in His image. Nowhere does the Bible insinuate such a thing. My goodness.

God is not wicked.

Absolutely, He's not. Perish the thought. #Non sequitur... Although, in a very real sense, wickedness is really what you unwittingly accuse God of. I know you don't mean to at all, but you do.

When He created Adam, Adam was sinless and perfect.

Sure! He had not yet sinned. Correct. But he did have the ability to sin, because otherwise he would not have sinned. Right? Well of course that's right.

When Adam turned willfully against Jehovah he ceased to be in the image of God.

Absolutely incorrect. If this were so, then how would any of us be made in God's image? But yet we are, because original image was not taken away in any sense. Adam, as the federal head of all of mankind, bequeathed his guilt to all of mankind -- this unrighteousness and guilt was imputed to all of mankind. We all still bear that image, as Adam did, it is just... marred... because of sin. This is precisely what makes Jesus's atonement on the cross necessary! Mankind must be redeemed to God, and only the Second Adam, Christ -- YHVH in the flesh, the One who perfectly succeeds where the first Adam miserably failed -- can do this, thereby imputing His righteousness to God's Elect (it's sufficient for everyone, but only effectual for God's Elect, those whom He calls, gives spiritual birth to, and works faith in by His Spirit).

Jehovah eternally punishes evil people with annihilation...

Absolutely incorrect. I said above and will say again and again that there is no insinuation anywhere in the Bible of God annihilating what He has created, much less what He created "very good," much less what He created in His own image. He punishes unbelieving, unrepentant sinners (whose father is Satan), who remain dead in their sin, with an existence away from His Light, Jesus, Who Himself is Life, because this is what they have chosen. In the end, He gives them their chief desire. Really, this is in itself a mercy, it's just not mercy in the form of salvation. As for the latter, God says He will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy, compassion upon whom He will have compassion. The clear implication is that not everyone receives this mercy/compassion -- salvation.

...so that (1) they won't hurt good people any more, and (2) so that they will just go away into oblivion and not continue to suffer agonizing pain forever.

Well, as for the first thing here, they won't hurt good people any more, because they will not be present in the New Heaven and New Earth. There will be no more sin there. As I've said before, all this should be seen in the same light as what we see take place during Jesus's crucifixion. To the thief crucified on His right, He says, "...you will be with me today in paradise," but to the thief crucified on His left, he says absolutely nothing. That silence is deafening and does not say "you will no longer exist," but rather, implicitly, "you will not be with Me in paradise, but rather somewhere else." And in the Judgment, He is very explicit, sending those on His left away -- somewhere else other than the kingdom prepared before the foundation of the world.

The second thing here... I think what you mean to say is really, "Jehovah eternally punishes evil people with annihilation..." NOT "...so that they will just go away into oblivion and not continue to suffer agonizing pain forever." Right? Well, again, He doesn't punish with annihilation, as the Bible makes very clear. You're use of "oblivion" is just loaded language and therefore kind of silly. I would not call it "oblivion" -- although I don't really have a problem with that language -- but rather just ("just"... ) a place other than in the presence of Christ, in God's grace, in the New Heaven and New Earth. And the "agonizing pain" is figurative; it's a never-ending anguish at having chosen incorrectly and having no possibility of correcting oneself, which, again, Jesus portrays graphically in Luke 16. It is "an unquenchable fire" and "their worm that does not die," as Mark puts it in chapter 9 of his Gospel. And it's quite worth saying, again, that it's "THEIR worm that does not die," and not "God's worm in them" or "the worm that God puts in them" that "doesn't die." It is all self-inflicted, which itself is a big part of the anguish.

Grace and peace to you.

[Checkpoint]

Peace to you all,

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #908]

The problem (or at least one problem) with the idea that thousand years is right now, is that the Adversary is not currently sealed and locked in the Abyss, which he is supposed to be before the start of the thousand years:

And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him INTO THE ABYSS, and LOCKED and SEALED it over him, to keep him from deceiving THE NATIONS anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.. Rev 20:1-3

Instead of being bound and sealed and locked in the abyss, the Adversary is roaming about, deceiving the nations (including about the gospel; in order to prevent people from coming to Christ and so also to LIFE):

Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 1 Peter 5:8


We are not in the thousand years as of yet.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

You have explained how you see what is written in Revelation 20 about Satan.

I will now give another explanation of the same verses, and draw a different conclusion.

It is always easier to grasp what is being said if we look at the immediate context, before we use a wider context in support of any point.

You only used verses 1-3, but the immediate context includes verses 7-10, which read:

7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.

9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

These later verses tell us what the earlier verses did not specify. Context is key.

The earlier verse did not spell out the meaning intended by "not deceive the nations any more until" . The devil deceived them "to gather them for battle".

Therefore,

1). Satan was only stopped from gathering the nations for the final climactic battle with the Lord and His people, not from all his other deception.

2). That final battle is described several times in Revelation.

Including 16:16, 17:14, and 19:19. It is the same battle. There is only one of those.

Further evidence that Revelation is not always chronological.

Grace and peace to you, and to all.

[onewithhim]

I wonder why you say that "eternal punishment" does not include total obliteration.

Because it doesn't. See above. The two are antithetical, in direct opposition to each other.

Isn't that the supreme punishment?

One might think, but no. First, 'eternal' means everlasting, of and for eternity, rather than momentary or fleeting. And second, it should be evident that the ultimate punishment is what we might think of as life imprisonment -- enduring that punishment for the balance of one's existence, which itself is a death. That's how it should be viewed.

I read your posts but they don't answer my questions. Please humor me. HOW are "eternal punishment" and "total obliteration" antithetical? "Eternal" merely means that it is a judgment for all time; there is no end to the punishment of obliteration. The individual would be totally gone forever with no resurrection.

Your view "is the way it should be viewed"---well I disagree. Having to endure an existence of complete inactivity forever is the epitome of cruelty. It would not be cruel if the individual were put to sleep eternally. Death is the opposite of existing. All through the Bible it is said that the wicked's punishment is DEATH. They are not alive. They are not in existence to suffer.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #925]

I'm sorry, I still cannot follow your line of reasoning. I'm out.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #925]

I'm sorry, I still cannot follow your line of reasoning. I'm out.

Well, I'm sorry too.

It saddens me, but does not surprise me, that you are "out" regarding our discussion of the meaning of Revelation 20.

Until we "meet" again on this sub-forum, I wish you well.

[PinSeeker]

I read your posts but they don't answer my questions.

That's, um, very debatable.

Please humor me.

That depends on your willingness to be "humored," but sure thing.

HOW are "eternal punishment" and "total obliteration" antithetical?

Because with total obliteration, the punishment that one endures is fleeting and/or momentary... at best temporary and surely not eternal. The very definition of eternal is "lasting forever."

"Eternal" merely means that it is a judgment for all time...

Agreed. But it is not instantaneous or temporary, but rather ongoing and everlasting, the denial of which is the effect of your position.

...there is no end to the punishment of obliteration. The individual would be totally gone forever with no resurrection.

One cannot be punished if one does not exist or is "obliterated" or annihilated. If one were obliterated or annihilated, that would have ended his/her punishment. I agree with you on the "gone forever" part, but not in the sense in which you propagate that concept. The "gone forever" thing happens, but only to those on Jesus's proverbial left after all are resurrected and sent away (Matthew 7, Matthew 25, Revelation 20).

Your view "is the way it should be viewed"---well I disagree.

Sure you do. Sure you do. I understand.

Having to endure an existence of complete inactivity forever is the epitome of cruelty. It would not be cruel if the individual were put to sleep eternally.

Two things to say to this:
.

1. No offense intended here, but your concept of cruelty is extremely simplistic and humanistic. No, God's ways are (much) higher than ours, His thoughts (much) higher (Psalm 139, Isaiah 55). As I said, even God's judgments are not -- and even His eternal judgment is not -- unloving, much less "cruel." The word 'cruelty' is defined as "callous indifference to, or pleasure in, causing pain and suffering.” So to insinuate that God is cruel, one would have to say that God either doesn’t care about pain and suffering, or He actually enjoys watching His creatures suffer, or both, which is silly. God is anything but indifferent to pain and suffering and surely takes no pleasure in it. As Paul tells us in 1 Timothy 2, God our Savior desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." This is precisely why He "gave himself as a ransom for all..." Three things to say in view of this:
.

a.) God’s love is not diminished when He brings punishment on people. God is able to bring judgment on an evil group of people in order to spare those who are devoted to Him. To allow evil and wrongdoing to go unpunished would indeed be cruel and would indicate a callousness toward the innocent.

.

b.) Pain and suffering that produce a greater good sometimes can be brought about by no other means. Against nonbelievers, God’s justice is vindicated when He causes pain and suffering to them because they deserve it... they are without excuse, as Paul says in Romans 1. When, through their own rebellion, they bring upon themselves calamity, this is justice -- and even love -- in the form of punishment, not cruelty.

.

c.) God is glorified by the exhibition of His attributes, among which is His justice. We surely all agree that He looks pretty good to us when His love and mercy are on display, but since each and every attribute is holy and perfect, even the exhibition of His wrath and anger bring Him glory. And that is the ultimate goal -- His glory, not ours.

.
2. Who ever said "complete inactivity?" Surely not me. No, I would surely say that even away from the New Heaven and New Earth, there will still be a "life" (in quotes) to be lived, it just will not be in the presence of the One Who Himself is true life, and only under God's judgment in an existence totally devoid of God's grace. So it is surely a death, but not a cessation of existence.

Death is the opposite of existing.

Nope. Death is the opposite of life, but not existence. As I have said many times, even in this life, there are dead people walking among us -- those who are dead in their sin, which is the natural condition of us all at birth. As Paul says, we were all "dead in the trespasses and sins in which (we) once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience -- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." So, quite obviously, we were all once dead and existing at the same time, and many remain that way. Some, though, in the course of this life, are, as Paul says, "made... alive together with Christ -- by grace... saved," and as Peter puts it, are "born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." These are the recipients of God's mercy and compassion, which He gives only to those whom He chooses to give it to, His Elect (Paul, Romans 9).

All through the Bible it is said that the wicked's punishment is DEATH. They are not alive.

Agreed, but your definition of 'alive' and 'death' is very simplistic and humanistic, as I said. See above.

They are not in existence to suffer.

Well, I agree, in a sense. All were created to glorify God. Some will do so for eternity in a place other than in the New Heaven and New Earth, though. But this will be a consequence of their own choice, and God will be glorified in it.

[JehovahsWitness]

.... total obliteration, the punishment that one endures is fleeting and/or momentary... at best temporary and surely not eternal.

That would depend in what you identify as "punishment". Biblically the punishment for sin is not "the execution" (which is momentary), the punishment (handed only to the incorrigibly wicked) is perpetual death ie . being dead * forever. As long as a person is dead they are subject to said "punishment".

A living God has mercifully refrained from prescribing eternal torture as a punishment for evil.


* dead as in being non-existent