Making sense of the NT

[Sherlock Holmes]

Hello,

I've been debating (online) against atheism for many years, I'm very well educated in the sciences and to a lesser degree, philosophy.

However - and I know I'm not alone here - Christianity itself, the New Testament, remarkable and thought provoking as it is, and not questioning the legitimacy of the texts we have access to, I am ultimately deeply puzzled by it all.

Christ revealed some deeply profound things, completely dumbfounding prevailing Jewish beliefs and this goes in its favor, as it's sheer radicality is just not something I'd expect to simply emerge from prevailing ideas.

Yet it makes no sense at the end of the day, for example why go to all this trouble? the entire human race is in a state of anguish, confusion and beginning to collapse, why is that logically necessary as part of creation?

What exactly are humans expected to do? it is far from clear (as is evidenced by the many doctrinal arguments over the past twenty centuries).

So that's my position, I'm interested in hearing some candidate answers!

[Sherlock Holmes]

(...) Well there are hundreds of cases of people who killed and tortured yet claimed they were doing what God willed them to do.

I also did not accuse anyone - not God or anyone - of being "unjust" or lying.

The human attitude says nothing about God and his purpose when he created us. If a person uses a knife to kill, is it the blacksmith's fault?

It might be, how do we decide who's fault anything is anyway?

Adam sinned because of Eve' she was at fault, Eve sinned because of the serpent, the serpent was at fault, the serpent sinned because of God, God created a being that was able to sin, the serpent was free, permitted to do what it did.

[JehovahsWitness]

... the serpent sinned because of God, God created a being that was able to sin, the serpent was free, permitted to do what it did.

Biblically speaking, serpent was able to sin because of God, but God was not responsible for his choice; free will places responsibility for ones choices firmly at the feet of the individual concerned.









JW





FURTHER READING : Why does God allow evil and suffering?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... suffering/

RELATED POSTS

Did God create the devil?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 15#p835715

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

FREE WILL, ORIGINAL SIN and ... SELECTIVE FOREKNOWLEDGE

[Sherlock Holmes]

... the serpent sinned because of God, God created a being that was able to sin, the serpent was free, permitted to do what it did.

Biblically speaking, serpent was able to sin because of God, but God was not responsible for his choice; free will places responsibility for ones choices firmly at the feet of the individual concerned.

That doesn't make sense, how can something or someone act against God's will? God's will cannot be resisted so therefore whatever we do must be in accordance with God's will or we'd be unable to do it so if we sin it is God's will we sin.

This is just one example of why this makes no sense, so many Christians I meet have simply glossed over all this, pretending it's all hunk dory, it isn't.

[JehovahsWitness]

That doesn't make sense, how can something or someone act against God's will? God's will cannot be resisted ...

Says WHO?!


Logically an omnipotent God can make anything possible, so if God wanted to make it possible for his creation to make choices independent of his will, an omnipotent God could do ...

Rather like allowing one's adult child to get a tattoo ...


Logic,

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

FREE WILL, OMNISCIENCE and ...SELECTIVE FOREKNOWLEDGE

[theophile]

Yet it makes no sense at the end of the day, for example why go to all this trouble? the entire human race is in a state of anguish, confusion and beginning to collapse, why is that logically necessary as part of creation?

Who said that all this mess is logically necessary? I don't recall any such mention of that in the Gen 1 creation narrative. Debatable if that's what Gen 2-3 conveys.

That said, I do think there are variable elements and a chaotic potential in creation. But that doesn't necessarily mean the anguish and confusion you speak of.

What exactly are humans expected to do? it is far from clear (as is evidenced by the many doctrinal arguments over the past twenty centuries).

Per Gen 1 I'd suggest something along the lines of filling the earth with life and subduing it. Or per Gen 2, to "work and till" the garden. So from both of those references I would think of our role as something akin to a gardener. Creating the conditions for life. Creating a harmony of life. Making sure life of every kind can flourish. That kind of thing.

Why? why are people expected to do that? what is the purpose of doing that? This is what I'm driving at, it makes no sense to me.

What doesn't make sense about a world filled with life? Do you prefer the direction we're going, i.e., a world of empty oceans and barren landscapes? (Would you rather the desolation of Mars to the fecundity of the rain forests and coral reefs of Earth?)

But look, we are all free to choose our core values. Wealth. Power. Knowledge... In the bible that core value is life in all of its myriad expressions.

The world is filled with misery, pain, anguish and suffering, this is what has been created.

Children are abused and tortured the world over, people become sick and suffer misery and pain the world over, this is what I see, this is what has been created, but why?

I think you need to re-examine your starting point.

You (seemingly) want to insist on an omnipotent, perfectly good God, but you can't reconcile such a God with this mess of a world.

I would 100% agree that this world is a mess. But this has led me to re-examine my assumptions about God. (The only other possibility is that the writers were idiots, but I don't think they could be simultaneously capable of such profundity and obvious conflict.)

My advice, for what it's worth, is to reconsider the nature of God's power and how God works. For instance, nowhere (in either the Old or New Testament) is God described as omnipotent. So why not let go of this later theological concept in favor of a more biblical view?

[1213]

But loving your neighbour is WORKS, not righteousness, which is loving God. ...
No that's not what God wants from Humans according to the NT. Try again.

It is written in NT, so why do you think it is not true?

I think it is also good to notice:

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous."
1 John 5:3

All God's commandments come true, if we love our neighbor as ourselves. And if we love so, that means we also love God by doing so.

[1213]

...
Is taking the life of a neighbor who asks one to (perhaps they are terminally ill and in pain) an example of showing them love?

What if loving one neighbor negatively impacts another neighbor?

If loving other has really negative effect, I don't think person really loves. And about taking others life, is that what you would like to be done to you in same situation? Or would you rather see some good reason to stay as long as it is possible? I think killing is poor solution. Better would be to help the other to use rest of his life as well as possible.

[David the apologist]

Biblically speaking, serpent was able to sin because of God, but God was not responsible for his choice; free will places responsibility for ones choices firmly at the feet of the individual concerned.

That doesn't make sense, how can something or someone act against God's will? God's will cannot be resisted so therefore whatever we do must be in accordance with God's will or we'd be unable to do it so if we sin it is God's will we sin.

You say you have debated "against atheism," yes?

Three further questions.

1. Are you a philosophical theist?

2. Do you think that any theodicy is successful?

3. Is there something about the theodicy you prefer that prevents Christians from adopting it?

I want to figure out where you stand, before I try and convince you of my own position.

[brunumb]

If loving other has really negative effect, I don't think person really loves. And about taking others life, is that what you would like to be done to you in same situation? Or would you rather see some good reason to stay as long as it is possible? I think killing is poor solution. Better would be to help the other to use rest of his life as well as possible.

Pity you weren't there to advise God when he decided to drown the entire planet as the best solution to the problem of evil people.

[Tcg]

If loving other has really negative effect, I don't think person really loves. And about taking others life, is that what you would like to be done to you in same situation? Or would you rather see some good reason to stay as long as it is possible? I think killing is poor solution. Better would be to help the other to use rest of his life as well as possible.

Pity you weren't there to advise God when he decided to drown the entire planet as the best solution to the problem of evil people.

It doesn't end there:

Revelation 14:17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

God's love of destruction carries on into the future, at least supposedly.


Tcg'