Who created evil spirits!

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DanieltheDragon
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Who created evil spirits!

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Post by DanieltheDragon »

Who created evil spirits, the snake, the devil, and various other malevolent forces?

Why would such a being create such things?
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ttruscott
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Re: Who created evil spirits!

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Post by ttruscott »

Claire Evans wrote:There are malevolent things that are omniscient and omnipresent like God but are not eternal because of being defeated by Christ. That is what I believe.
Claire Evans wrote:They weren't created. They just are. Good and evil both existed from the start.
Uncreated but not eternal? And uncreated good persons and uncreated bad persons are also not eternal?
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: Who created evil spirits!

Post #32

Post by amortalman »

[Replying to DanieltheDragon]

Allow me to offer a complete and logical solution to this problem. There is no God, no Satan. Period.

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Re: Who created evil spirits!

Post #33

Post by amortalman »

[Replying to post 1 by amortalman]

amortalman again... I apologize for my previous post since reading the purpose for this sub-forum. Best wishes!

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Re: Who created evil spirits!

Post #34

Post by Claire Evans »

McCulloch wrote:
Claire Evans wrote:
McCulloch wrote:
Claire Evans wrote:
DanieltheDragon wrote:Who created evil spirits, the snake, the devil, and various other malevolent forces?
Why would such a being create such things?
They weren't created. They just are. Good and evil both existed from the start.
You're confusing me. To you, God is not the only uncreated being? God didn't create the entire universe, but there are some things, malevolent things, in the universe that are like God eternal.

They would have been eternal, according to my belief, should it not have been for the resurrection of Christ.

There are malevolent things that are omniscient and omnipresent like God but are not eternal because of being defeated by Christ. That is what I believe.
Two questions:
  1. Why do you believe this? Simply stating your belief has no value in debate. You must provide some reason that you believe this. Particularly when you disagree with the writer of Colossians 1:16

    For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
  2. If Christ has defeated them, do they still exist today? If they don't still exist, why do the New Testament writers warn against them? If they still exist, why? When Odin defeated the ice giants, they were never seen again. When Zeus defeated the Titans, they were banished, never to bother humans or gods again. Is your God weaker than the others?
Well, isn't what Paul is writing opinion not suitable for a debate whereby debates require empirical evidence?

Paul believed what he was taught to believe as a Jew. He wouldn't have questioned the scriptures.

They do exist still but you are thinking of time as linear. According to Einstein, he espoused that the present, past and future are happening simultaneously.


http://everythingforever.com/einstein.htm

If the defeat is not set in stone, how can we have Revelation that depicts the final battle between Jesus and Satan and his followers? Why would there still be a battle to be fought?

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Re: Who created evil spirits!

Post #35

Post by Claire Evans »

ttruscott wrote:
Claire Evans wrote:There are malevolent things that are omniscient and omnipresent like God but are not eternal because of being defeated by Christ. That is what I believe.
Claire Evans wrote:They weren't created. They just are. Good and evil both existed from the start.
Uncreated but not eternal? And uncreated good persons and uncreated bad persons are also not eternal?

Yes, Satan requires sin to feed off as we believe. Take away that sin, like Jesus did, he cannot survive. He needs the suffering of the good to survive.

Are there any uncreated people?

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Post #36

Post by JehovahsWitness »

OnceConvinced wrote: All God had to do was refuse to create this angel. Yet he still created it.
This implies that just because God can see into everbody's individual future He does so, however to do so would be a violation of their rights as free moral agents; Jehovah accords his intelligent creatures the dignity of choice and has chosen himself to react to their choices in "real time " as it were, so his relationships and appeals for them to make wise choices are honest and respectful of the freedom he accords them.

Image

In short God created perfect angels fully capable of choosing to do good. He did not know if any of His angels would rebel when He created them, thus those that did are entirely responsible for their own choices.








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Post #37

Post by OnceConvinced »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
OnceConvinced wrote: All God had to do was refuse to create this angel. Yet he still created it.
This implies that just because God can see into everbody's individual future He does so, however to do so would be a violation of their rights as free moral agents; Jehovah accords his intelligent creatures the dignity of choice and has chosen himself to react to their choices in "real time " as it were, so his relationships and appeals for them to make wise choices are honest and respectful of the freedom he accords them.

In short God created perfect angels fully capable of choosing to do good. He did not know if any of His angels would rebel when He created them, thus those that did are entirely responsible for their own choices.
It is not so bad if God did not know the abominations he would become, but would God be so ignorant? So incompetent? Would he really be that clueless about what he was creating?

One may be able to say he is not malevolent, but it would show real ignorance on his behalf. I for one can not imagine an all-knowing god not at least being aware of the horrors he is potentially creating. If he was at least aware that his creation could be come such an abomination, one would think a loving and caring creator would at least make some adjustment to his design. A sensible one would simply avoid creating it just in case it became so grossly malevolent.

But let's not put Satan on par with humans here. Satan is a far more evil entity than even the worst human. Him, being a spiritual and immortal being, makes him a way worse abomination than any human being. If one knows or even at the least knows that it's a high possibility this being will become so evil and yet creates him anyway... that is malevolence or at the very least very reckless, thoughtless and uncaring.

I just see no valid excuse for an all-knowing wise creator to create such a potential horror. Not unless he just didn't care.

Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.

Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.

There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.


Check out my website: Recker's World

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JehovahsWitness
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Post #38

Post by JehovahsWitness »

OnceConvinced wrote:
It is not so bad if God did not know the abominations he would become, but would God be so ignorant? So incompetent? Would he really be that clueless about what he was creating?
What evidence do you have that he was any of these things? What if anything in my post implied the above?

God was perfectly aware of the implications of creating free moral agents, that he dignified them with choice and the privacy of making them without His interference is, in my opinion testimony to his integrity and righteousness as well as his forethought, wisdom and infinite benevolence.

JW


VIDEO Did God know Adam and Eve would sin?
[youtube][/youtube]
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Re: Who created evil spirits!

Post #39

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

ttruscott wrote:
DanieltheDragon wrote: Who created evil spirits, the snake, the devil, and various other malevolent forces? Why would such a being create such things?
All evil was because of the free will decision of a created person. That some evil choices changed the nature of the person so they became eternally evil in their nature is the only way any evil being came into existence.

GOD is light (goodness) in whom is no darkness (evil) at all. No darkness can come out of even a candle flame, let alone the GOD who is light.
Nowhere does the Bible specifically offer humankind free will. The Bible does specifically indicate that God purposely creates evil however.

Isa 45:
[5] I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
[6] That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
[7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Image "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." -- Albert Einstein -- Written in 1954 to Jewish philosopher Erik Gutkind.

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Post #40

Post by Claire Evans »

ttruscott wrote:
Claire Evans wrote:
tam wrote: They weren't created evil, and I see nothing to suggest that they were created evil. They caused harm and 'became' evil by what they chose to do, beginning with the Adversary (the one called Satan, the devil, who was the serpent/seraph in the Garden of Eden).


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

If they weren't created evil, then why did Jesus say...

"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies." ?
ttruscott wrote: According to the belief in our pre-earth existence, the beginning refers not to his beginning but to the beginning of the physical universe well after he chose to be the first sinner and became The Satan. Job 38:7 proves the sons of God were there at the creation of the physical universe with the morning stars and all bowed to HIS divinity and glory at that event.
So you are telling me that when Satan rebelled, the physical universe had not existed yet? I thought that straight after the rebellion, Satan and other fallen angels were banished straight down to earth. Therefore they had both existed at the same time.




The devil could never have become evil because in order to be evil means that evil must already have existed.

ttruscott wrote:This is not logical. All that was necessary was to have everyone created in HIS image to be ingenuously innocent and to have a free, uncoerced, non-constrained will and the possibility that evil was possible.

You can't choose to do evil unless evil already exist. You are born without sin at birth but only do wrong because evil exists already. How can evil be possible if God didn't create it? There needs to be a source for everything. Therefore we can assume that God created evil so that people could choose between evil and good. What a disaster that turned out to be. And do you think God was so blind that He couldn't foresee Satan's rebellion?
What made the devil have evil thoughts? How did he get tempted. We do evil because we are flawed and have the propensity to do evil. Therefore in order to do evil, Satan must have been created flawed with the propensity to do evil.
ttruscott wrote:Society had grown in their innocence to the point of sophistication that the Trinity could make a public claim without proof to be our creator GOD and that we should make a decision to accept that claim or to deny it by faith, without proof. Acceptance came with various promises; rejection came with various warnings. Innocence is an amoral position until it is tested. If an innocent makes a righteous moral decision, she becomes good. If an innocent makes an unrighteous moral decision, he becomes bad. Morality is found in the decisions we make about the things we experience and whether those decisions conform to GOD or do not.
That's not relevant to how we got the propensity to do evil. Can God be tempted?
ttruscott wrote:The Bible seems to hint that satan fell over arrogance and the desire to put himself above GOD. If this is true then he was miffed that some he knew as ordinary would suddenly say They were above him. He recognized the fact that if they were lying that that would make them as the first liars in reality and therefore the lowest of the low. This represented for him the point of view of the greatest happiness for his life so he took it on faith that YHWH was a liar and a false god.
HOW did he become arrogant if he was made perfect? There is no way a person who loves God would try and usurp Him. Does anyone else support your view on the lying bit?
ttruscott wrote:But whatever the actual process was within his mind, it is my contention that nothing in his creation and nothing in his experience FORCED him to put his faith into believing YHWH was a false god, but that he chose to go that route by his free will. We are tempted by our desires James 1:14 But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. 15 Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is fully grown, it gives birth to death. Since there might be references to his pride in life and his accomplishments, these feelings may have been nurtured by him until he desired to believe he was the best in all creation only to have his hopes threatened when YHWH made the claim to deity.


Without any real proof as to what happened this is one answer that at least is plausible to answer your contention he was eternally evil or he could not become evil. Neither did GOD create us flawed leading to our sin because HE is light and dark (flaws leading to sin) does not come out of light. Our flaws are because of our choice to sin, not the cause of our choice to sin.
I know about free will but you have not explained how the devil had the propensity to do evil in the first place. When someone out of arrogance does something spiteful, does not the devil tempt him to do it first? Then who tempted Satan?


Why would God create the devil with the propensity to do evil knowing full well what the devil would do?

ttruscott wrote:I agree. GOD would not create Satan knowing his evil and his end in hell. But the answer lies, not in his eternal evil, but in the pagan worldly definition of that which GOD knows and I contend that Acts 15:18 implies that if GOD did not create the results of our free will decisions then HE did not know those results until we made the decision for ourselves and HE learned them then when each innocent person made their first moral decision.
But somehow God knows in advance that the Anti-Christ will come and enslave mankind? He knows that but didn't know that Satan would become evil? He also didn't His Son would be put to death to save us from sin and from the devil?

God is omniscient. He knows everything. He does not have selective knowledge.

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