TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 6:28 am
Compassionist wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 5:41 am
William wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 4:56 pm
Compassionist wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 4:09 pm
William wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 3:39 pm
[
Replying to Compassionist in post #54]
I am clearly not a free agent with a free will. I am truly a prisoner of causality who does things he does not want to do and can't do what he wants to do. The same applies to you and other prisoners of causality. All sentient biological beings are victims from conception to death. We live inevitable lives and make inevitable choices. All our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. Only an all-knowing and all-powerful being has free will. All else are victims of having insufficient knowledge and having insufficient power.
I disagree with victim mentality as it bases its station of position on assumptions which themselves are insufficient evidence to warrant being the victim of circumstance.
I suspect that in some, if not many cases where the supposed 'problem of evil' is forefront in the reasoning preventing individuals from entertaining the idea that there is a creative mind involved with this experiential reality, because being the victim is preferrable.
Fortunately I can empathize, as I am sure most folk can, as most folk have felt like victims of circumstance and I certainly have wished for a 'perfect world' or at least a better world than the one we currently occupy - but ultimately I saw no usefulness in retaining the victim role as it showed itself to be detrimental - not only to my mental health - but also to my finding any possibly meaning for being, amongst it all as it is rather than as I personally wished it could be, or thought it should be.
Tardigrades
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/anim ... ater-bears can live without air, water and food. You can demonstrate that you are not a victim of determinism by doing what tardigrades do. Please document your years without oxygen, water and food by doing a livestream of it online. If you can do it, it will convince me that you are not a prisoner of causality. Also, please make all living things (past, present and future) forever happy with your alleged free will and grant all living things omnibenevolence, omniscience, omnipotence and an infinite number of universes each. I bet you will fail to do these tasks. It's not your fault. Your every choice is determined and constrained and empowered by your unique mix of genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. As is mine.
Nonetheless, I am not the victim you appear to see me as, and want me to see myself as.
Yes, you are a victim. Even the fact that you are in denial about being a victim is inevitable. Did you choose to conceive yourself? Did you choose your genes? Can you do any of the tasks I asked you to do? No. You are a victim from conception to death. As are all living things. I define free will as a will that is free to do anything and is not determined by any variables. Such free will does not exist in biological organisms. Only an all-knowing and all-powerful being has free will.
I agree with that too
.....in a way. Arguably, everything we are and everything we do is the result of a reason, not a random flip of a coin. And I reckon the impression we have of 'Free Will' is because we aren't aware of the reasons we decide to do this or that (1) and that is the Illusion of free will. But that'll do. It still gives us choice. Thus we are not prisoners of life. I din't ask to be born, but I'm very lucky that I was. Who would complain about a lotto win just because you didn't buy the ticket yourself? And what is the point of wingeing because we can't fly? Give thanks that you live in a time when we all can fly, with some scientific assistance.
It's half empty or half -full. Victims of circumstances or incredible lottery winners in Life. I could have been a peasant in 9th c China or a farmer in 11th c England. Instead I'm living in an age of prosperity, information and options, and anyone who wants to play the victim can do so, but I suggest that trying to make others see themselves as victims should just get a horse -laugh.
Besides which of course, even if the "We are so terribly hard done by" view of life had some mileage, what's it got to do with the topic? Or even the forum? How does it get God off the hook, argue for a god or make any case for theism?
(1) e.g instinct, including learned instinct. Who here has not changed their house or job and then found themselves without thinking, going to the old address or job? 'Habit' (learned instinct).
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I have never said that biological organisms don't make choices. I have said that our choices are determined by genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. 99.9% of all the species to evolve so far on Earth are already extinct. They are not enjoying life. Did you know that 1 in 5 meerkats are murdered by other meerkats? Did you know the murdered meerkats are mostly the babies of non-alpha female meerkats? They are killed by alpha female meerkats. Selfish genes make selfish organisms. You can't blame organisms for their choices. Out of the 125 billion humans who have been born so far on Earth, 117.1 billion are already dead. The remaining 7.9 billion will also die. You can't prevent that.
There are billions of people who are currently alive who have never flown in a plane or even a balloon because they can't afford to. It's great that you are happy about being alive. I am not. I have never wanted to be alive. I think about suicide every few minutes. I hate all the suffering, injustice and deaths but I can't go back in time and prevent all suffering, injustice and deaths. I want to make all living things forever happy but I can't. My lack of omnniscience and omnipotence makes me so sad. I want live without consuming any oxygen, water and food but I can't. I am a vegan but I want to me much more ethical then just being a vegan. I want to be a total non-consumer who consumes nothing and has zero ecological footprint. I feel terrible that my existence has made climate change worse. Every time I exhale, fart, burp, cough and sneeze I expel carbon dioxide which makes climate change worse. I am ashamed of my existence and the harm my existence has caused to other living things. I wish I was never conceived.
Please see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... death_toll
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_g ... death_toll
We live in a reality full of suffering, injustice and deaths. If the Biblical God made this reality then he is guilty of failing to prevent all the suffering, injustice and deaths. It's possible that the Biblical God is imaginary and evil instead of being real and evil.
There is an infinite gap between what I want to do and what I can do.
Things I want to do but can't do due to lack of ability:
1. Go back in time and prevent all suffering and death and injustice.
2. Make all living things equally omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent and be the owner of an infinite number of universes each.
3. End all diseases, injuries, deaths, etc.
4. Prevent all natural disasters.
5. Prevent all accidents.
6. Prevent all violence, killings, rapes, kidnappings, tortures, crimes, persecutions, bullying, bigotry, hypocrisy, selfishness, cruelty, etc.
7. Prevent all malevolence and ignorance.
8. Give everyone the ability to teleport everywhere in an infinite number of universes across an infinite number of timelines.
9. Prevent all poverty.
10. Make all living things forever happy.
Things I do (or will do) even though I don't want to do them:
1. Breathe
2. Eat
3. Drink
4. Sleep
5. Dream
7. Pee
8. Poo
9. Fart
10. Burp
11. Sneeze
12. Cough
13. Age
14. Get ill
15. Get injured
16. Sweat
17. Cry
18. Suffer
19. Die
I am clearly not a free agent with a free will. I am truly a prisoner of causality who does things he does not want to do and can't do what he wants to do. The same applies to you and other prisoners of causality. All sentient biological beings are victims from conception to death. We live inevitable lives and make inevitable choices. All our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. Only an all-knowing and all-powerful being has free will. All else are victims of having insufficient knowledge and having insufficient power. I don't know if an all-knowing and all-powerful being exists or not.