What is ' consciousness ' ?

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Thomas123
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What is ' consciousness ' ?

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Post by Thomas123 »

This word appears to be at the centre of many discussions on this forum. It also appears to mean different things to different people and, therein lies the root of our miscommunication. What range and definement do you attribute to, ' consciousness ' ?

Is there an external consciousness in the world?. Can I tune into a shared consciousness. I am listening to Prime Minister's Question Time, ....is Boris tuned into a universal human consciousness as he delivers his address. Is his brain working ,simultaneously and in tandem with my own consciousness and with that of others?

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Re: What is ' consciousness ' ?

Post #241

Post by Tcg »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:17 am
brunumb wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:12 pm
Inquirer wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:47 pm How do you measure the utility of the scientific method? Would you say that a practice that is leading to the gradual destruction of the planet, creating weapons of mass destruction, polluting our water and air, would you argue that this is somehow "better" than simply taking care of what was given to us?
Those are not outcomes of practicing the scientific method. Get a grip Inquirer.
I don't know, with global warming, and the seas a-rising, we might catch up to God on the planet flooding.

But yeah, the scientific methods just a tool. How humans use the results of it is on them.
Not only that, but it's easy to look back now and see the devastation progress has brought. Not so much back then.

"Hey, should we use coal fueled power stations to produce electricity so that we can use lightbulbs rather than kerosene lamps?"

'Sure, gotta to be safer right?'

"Yeah, progress and all that!"

Decades later...

'Hey where did our mountain tops go?'

"Why do miners have black lung?"

'What's this climate change thing?'

To suggest this end result is the fault of the scientific method is an absurdity. It is the result of human's lack of foresight.

Of course, we also see that science haters ain't too proud to use electricity still.


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Re: What is ' consciousness ' ?

Post #242

Post by Inquirer »

Tcg wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:56 am
JoeyKnothead wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:17 am
brunumb wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:12 pm
Inquirer wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:47 pm How do you measure the utility of the scientific method? Would you say that a practice that is leading to the gradual destruction of the planet, creating weapons of mass destruction, polluting our water and air, would you argue that this is somehow "better" than simply taking care of what was given to us?
Those are not outcomes of practicing the scientific method. Get a grip Inquirer.
I don't know, with global warming, and the seas a-rising, we might catch up to God on the planet flooding.

But yeah, the scientific methods just a tool. How humans use the results of it is on them.
Not only that, but it's easy to look back now and see the devastation progress has brought. Not so much back then.

"Hey, should we use coal fueled power stations to produce electricity so that we can use lightbulbs rather than kerosene lamps?"

'Sure, gotta to be safer right?'

"Yeah, progress and all that!"

Decades later...

'Hey where did our mountain tops go?'

"Why do miners have black lung?"

'What's this climate change thing?'

To suggest this end result is the fault of the scientific method is an absurdity. It is the result of human's lack of foresight.

Of course, we also see that science haters ain't too proud to use electricity still.


Tcg
Are you describing me a scientist as a "science hater"? If not, then what is a science hater?

My original (and polite) question has still not been answered:
How do you measure the utility of the scientific method?
If you feel that the pursuit of scientific knowledge has no social costs then why not just say so? I'd be delighted to debate that with you.

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Re: What is ' consciousness ' ?

Post #243

Post by Inquirer »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:17 am
brunumb wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:12 pm
Inquirer wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:47 pm How do you measure the utility of the scientific method? Would you say that a practice that is leading to the gradual destruction of the planet, creating weapons of mass destruction, polluting our water and air, would you argue that this is somehow "better" than simply taking care of what was given to us?
Those are not outcomes of practicing the scientific method. Get a grip Inquirer.
I don't know, with global warming, and the seas a-rising, we might catch up to God on the planet flooding.

But yeah, the scientific methods just a tool. How humans use the results of it is on them.
So tools have no social costs? they only have social benefits, is that what you are claiming?

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Re: What is ' consciousness ' ?

Post #244

Post by Inquirer »

A brief explanatory note for anyone unware:

Saying that the pursuit of scientific knowledge carries social costs does not constitute a disapproval of science or scientific inquiry.

Cars have a social cost, I drive a car.
Guns have a social cost, I own a gun.

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Re: What is ' consciousness ' ?

Post #245

Post by Diogenes »

DrNoGods wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:11 am
bluegreenearth wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:18 pm
To put it simply, consciousness is to the human brain what wetness is to water.
I basically agree with this idea, but prefer to describe consciousness simply as a manifestation of normal brain activity, meaning the result of the interactions of billiions of neurons, memory elements, sensory inputs, etc. As you say, any one of these elements cannot create consciousness, but all of them working together as a system can. It is like many other systems where the whole is much greater than the sum of its parts. Observations that consciousness appears to vanish for an individual (human or otherwise) when it dies, significant brain damage can alter conscious ability, etc. suggests that the brain is the origin of consciousness, and given what we know about how thought works (another result of brain activity) consciousness being a manifestation of normal brain activity seems to be the most logical explanation, and the simplest even without specifying the exact mechanism at a molecular level.
I agree and also with bluegreenearth [posts #7 & #8] With the human brain having about 100 billion neurons and 100 TRILLION interconnections consciousness emerges, even tho' we do not yet understand exactly how. It is easy to see how the concept of the soul arose before we had any idea of how the brain worked and that physical things like trauma and drug use affected our consciousness
This new field of network neuroscience builds on and reinforces the idea that certain regions of the brain carry out defined activities. In the most fundamental sense, what the brain is—and thus who we are as conscious beings—is, in fact, defined by a sprawling network of 100 billion neurons with at least 100 trillion connecting points, or synapses.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... -networks/
A human brain is a very sophisticated and abstract system. It contains 100 billion neurons and about 1012 synapses per cubic centimetre of the cortex. Our brain does several tasks simultaneously that are highly complex such as talking, breathing, listening, seeing, walking, imagining, thinking, smiling, touching, feeling, smelling, learning, taking the decision, monitoring. Such tasks require a lot of processing.
https://techdifferences.com/difference- ... puter.html
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Re: What is ' consciousness ' ?

Post #246

Post by William »

[Replying to Diogenes in post #245]
It is easy to see how the concept of the soul arose before we had any idea of how the brain worked and that physical things like trauma and drug use affected our consciousness
Whoa ! Steady on with the placement of the cart here Diogenes.

A brain soaked in Consciousness is one thing, but follyish to then assume from that, that trauma and drugs "affect our consciousness" when clearly what is being affected is the brain.
It is the brain which is affected and consciousness is wide awake along for the ride.

"Physical things" are just how Human Brains "see" things, and Human Brains don't just look like this;

Image

But more to the actual point, they look like this;

Image

Since Humans and Drugs converged, wherever one is on the Face of the Planet, one has astoundingly similar experiences and those experiences have to do with why theistic beliefs manifested in the early epoch of Human Development...because Human consciousnesses under the influence of drugs which reduced the brains capacity to control 'what one sees' what one see's is done so in the most coherently vividly lucid manner which bypasses any damaged circuitry of the whole brain. Human Brain-Consciousness is undamaged and thus experiences everything in living colour and what is experienced is reported and added to the list of evidence re 'Things of The Mind.

[=276]
Human Brain-Consciousness
Redefinition of the human being
All things created are of the mind
All spun from the same Yarn
Conformal Cyclic Cosmology

The focus on the Brain needs to be of secondary importance to the focus on the Consciousness using the brain, otherwise it is 'brain before consciousness/cart before horse follysee...

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Re: What is ' consciousness ' ?

Post #247

Post by Diogenes »

William wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:52 pm [Replying to Diogenes in post #245]
It is easy to see how the concept of the soul arose before we had any idea of how the brain worked and that physical things like trauma and drug use affected our consciousness
Whoa ! Steady on with the placement of the cart here Diogenes.

A brain soaked in Consciousness is one thing, but follyish to then assume from that, that trauma and drugs "affect our consciousness" when clearly what is being affected is the brain.
It is the brain which is affected and consciousness is wide awake along for the ride.....
I struggle to understand how you managed to completely misunderstand, or misstate human biology and consciousness. Perhaps you have confused the idea of simply being 'conscious' or awake, with the concept of the nature and quality of that consciousness.

The trillions of connections in the brain give rise to consciousness. Obviously, consciousness as a product of the physical brain can be affected by damage or alteration of its physical structure, just as putting a physical hole in a roof will affect the shelter a house provides. The fact that getting drunk affects how we think and the consciousness we experience is a an example (and proof) of the physical basis of consciousness. When the brain turns to mush, there is zero consciousness.

Rather than just post images, perhaps you could support your claims with valid evidence?
Here is an example of how to support claims:
In the 1990s, neuroscientist Melvyn Goodale began to study people with a condition called visual form agnosia. Such individuals cannot consciously see the shape or orientation of objects, yet act as though they can. “If you hold up a pencil in front of them and ask them if it’s horizontal or vertical, they cannot tell you,” says Goodale, founding director of the Brain and Mind Institute at Western University in London, Canada. “But remarkably, they can reach out and grab that pencil, orienting their hand correctly as they reach out to make contact with it.”
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02207-1

Here's another example re: alcohol and its effect on consciousness, one example among many that demonstrate how physical things affect the brain and thereby, consciousness:
An example of an inhibitory neurotransmitter is GABA, which reduces energy levels and calms everything down. Drugs like Xanax and Valium (and other benzodiazopenes) increase GABA production in the brain, resulting in sedation. Alcohol does the same thing by increasing the effects of GABA. This, by the way, is one reason you don't want to drink alcohol while taking benzodiazopenes; the effects will be amplified, and that can slow your heart rate and respiratory system down to dangerous levels.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/daviddisal ... fcac2664ea
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Re: What is ' consciousness ' ?

Post #248

Post by William »

[Replying to Diogenes in post #247]

You and your supporters are conflating 'damage of brain' with 'damage of consciousness'

In any experience Consciousness is not disabled. Ask anyone who has ever taken a serious LSD Trip. They can tell you all about the experience. Same with those who have OOB and NDEs...

To believe damaging the brain damages the consciousness is cart before the horse. No scientific experiments have shown consciousness is damaged.

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Re: What is ' consciousness ' ?

Post #249

Post by brunumb »

Inquirer wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:02 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:17 am
brunumb wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:12 pm
Inquirer wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:47 pm How do you measure the utility of the scientific method? Would you say that a practice that is leading to the gradual destruction of the planet, creating weapons of mass destruction, polluting our water and air, would you argue that this is somehow "better" than simply taking care of what was given to us?
Those are not outcomes of practicing the scientific method. Get a grip Inquirer.
I don't know, with global warming, and the seas a-rising, we might catch up to God on the planet flooding.

But yeah, the scientific methods just a tool. How humans use the results of it is on them.
So tools have no social costs? they only have social benefits, is that what you are claiming?
So far you have provided no better alternative to the scientific method nor acknowledged that it in itself is not responsible for how the knowledge we gain is used. Readers, like me, must be wondering why.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: What is ' consciousness ' ?

Post #250

Post by otseng »

brunumb wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:12 pmGet a grip Inquirer.
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No need to throw in the "get a grip" part.

Please review the Rules.





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