What's the Point of Prayer?

[POI]

In regards to the following verses -- Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, John 16:23....

What do they really mean? I've debated many theists, and get a whole mess of conflicting answers. It will likely be no surprise if that continues here. After some thought, here are some findings...

1. All prayer is pointless, as any "answered prayer" would merely mean, <at best>, that it already aligned with God's will. Why? Because you cannot make God change His will. But this seems to go against all the verses listed above.

2. Ignore the above! God answers all prayer with a (yes, no, or later). His answer, of course, would be "no" if you are asking God to commit a 'sin.' But if this option is the case, I guess he will always say no to the requests of restoring lost limbs, reversing cerebral palsy, and downs syndrome. Why? Because they will die with these conditions, which means they remained unfulfilled until natural death. But this seems to go against all the verses listed above, as there really exists no such caveats....?

3. Ignore choices 1. and 2.! Prayer is only meant for giving thanks, other. God is not a slot machine! But this seems to go against all the verses listed above.

I'm sure there exists a plethora of other explanations........ You get the gist....

For Debate:

What is the point of prayer? I guess we can start here, and see where this goes....

[POI]

I disagree that God never healed a person with downs or amputations. In fact, we see in the gospel where Jesus restored a man's arm.

I would remind you that the Bible is not considered a credible source on this forum.

There are stories of these kinds of miracles happening.

There are a zillion stories of all kinds of miracles

But naturally, God wishes to remain mostly hidden so you are not going to find the evidence you want.

Welp, that is YOUR baseless claim, for which you have no support. And yet, you have yet to acknowledge my rationale:

To say He wishes to remain hidden, goes against what I stated in another thread. Meaning, your answer is YES to all such questions (i.e)

- Do you believe in the Christian God? (yes or no)
- Can your God manifest in our reality, if He wants to? (yes or no)
- Does your God want a relationship with His creation? (yes or no)
- Does your God want you to know He even exists? (yes or no)
- Does your God know what would convince anyone/everyone that He exists? (yes or no)
- Is your God capable of doing such convincing? (yes or no)
- Is your God reported to intervene with His creation? (yes or no)

Here is a testimony of a woman's down syndrome baby being healed. She shows a photo at one month and then after the healing. Maybe she is lying or mistaken you might say. But such stories exist. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAFxrMJlF78

It's funny how when you provide a 'proof', you are too easily ready for it to be dismissed... I wonder why?

A guys leg grew back, the miracle of Calanda, which the church ruled is authentic. Of course, there are skeptics, but you can check the whole story here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Calanda

Can you blame the skeptics? Do I even need to bother here?

So which is it...?

A) God made sure these stories are not too credible, to assure he remains hidden?
B) They are plenty credible, which means he does not wish to remain too hidden?

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to POI in post #101]

I already stated that they are not too credible, but that doesn't mean they did not happen.

Do you believe in the Christian God? (yes or no)
- Can your God manifest in our reality, if He wants to? (yes or no)
- Does your God want a relationship with His creation? (yes or no)
- Does your God want you to know He even exists? (yes or no)
- Does your God know what would convince anyone/everyone that He exists? (yes or no)
- Is your God capable of doing such convincing? (yes or no)
- Is your God reported to intervene with His creation? (yes or no)

Does your God want you to know he even exists? This is not a yes or no question. In one sense God doesn't want us to know he exists. It is part of the test that we are born in darkness, unlike Satan who was born in light and still fell due to pride.

I wrote a short story from Satan's point of view of why he fell, which demonstrates why he does what he does. It helps see the whole picture better for why humans are born in darkness. https://www.freelymeditate.com/single-p ... f-creation

God wants you to know he exists in the sense that God wants you to come to believe in God through experiences and reasoning. I am sure this is becoming more difficult the more secular the world becomes, so the strongest are being tried now.

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #101]

I already stated that they are not too credible, but that doesn't mean they did not happen.

Do you believe in the Christian God? (yes or no)
- Can your God manifest in our reality, if He wants to? (yes or no)
- Does your God want a relationship with His creation? (yes or no)
- Does your God want you to know He even exists? (yes or no)
- Does your God know what would convince anyone/everyone that He exists? (yes or no)
- Is your God capable of doing such convincing? (yes or no)
- Is your God reported to intervene with His creation? (yes or no)

Does your God want you to know he even exists? This is not a yes or no question. In one sense God doesn't want us to know he exists. It is part of the test that we are born in darkness, unlike Satan who was born in light and still fell due to pride.

I wrote a short story from Satan's point of view of why he fell, which demonstrates why he does what he does. It helps see the whole picture better for why humans are born in darkness. https://www.freelymeditate.com/single-p ... f-creation

God wants you to know he exists in the sense that God wants you to come to believe in God through experiences and reasoning. I am sure this is becoming more difficult the more secular the world becomes, so the strongest are being tried now.

It's a yes or no question. One in which causes problems for your current apologetic spiel...

Second request:

So which is it...?

A) God made sure these stories are not too credible, to assure he remains hidden?
B) They are plenty credible, which means he does not wish to remain hidden?

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to POI in post #103]

I just demonstrated how it is not a yes or no question. If someone is yes in one sense and no in another, then a simple yes or no answer is not possible.

So which is it...?

A) God made sure these stories are not too credible, to assure he remains hidden?
B) They are plenty credible, which means he does not wish to remain hidden?

I answered before. I said they are not too credible, thus A. Even the story of the resurrection of Jesus is not too credible. We have reasons to doubt.

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #103]

I just demonstrated how it is not a yes or no question. If someone is yes in one sense and no in another, then a simple yes or no answer is not possible.

So which is it...?

A) God made sure these stories are not too credible, to assure he remains hidden?
B) They are plenty credible, which means he does not wish to remain hidden?

I answered before. I said they are not too credible, thus A. Even the story of the resurrection of Jesus is not too credible. We have reasons to doubt.

Your responses are quite the head-scratcher, I must say.... Thus, to recap, for the audience, here is where we look to stand thus far:

--- God may or may not answer prayers, but you have to ask
--- God will only entertain prayer requests if it does not truly reveal his existence
--- This is why you will likely not see answered prayer(s) for amputees, cerebral palsy, and downs syndrome
--- But he will do so, once in a great while, if it is on the down-low, because, again, he does not want to truly reveal his existence

I don't know about all of you folks reading along, but this sounds like you are "joshing" me a bit.... Are you an internet troll? I have to ask... Sorry. Your position is not supported by the Bible. Please re-read the Verses cited in the OP. They do not appear to include such given caveats...

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to POI in post #101]

I already stated that they are not too credible, but that doesn't mean they did not happen.

Do you believe in the Christian God? (yes or no)
- Can your God manifest in our reality, if He wants to? (yes or no)
- Does your God want a relationship with His creation? (yes or no)
- Does your God want you to know He even exists? (yes or no)
- Does your God know what would convince anyone/everyone that He exists? (yes or no)
- Is your God capable of doing such convincing? (yes or no)
- Is your God reported to intervene with His creation? (yes or no)

Does your God want you to know he even exists? This is not a yes or no question. In one sense God doesn't want us to know he exists. It is part of the test that we are born in darkness, unlike Satan who was born in light and still fell due to pride.

I wrote a short story from Satan's point of view of why he fell, which demonstrates why he does what he does. It helps see the whole picture better for why humans are born in darkness. https://www.freelymeditate.com/single-p ... f-creation

God wants you to know he exists in the sense that God wants you to come to believe in God through experiences and reasoning. I am sure this is becoming more difficult the more secular the world becomes, so the strongest are being tried now.

The denial is strong in this one. Sorry chum. What you see as Faith no matter what case secularism' makes is denial of what the evidence says - that on all real evidence there ain't no gods, and you could't know which was the true one (or true religion) anyway. And if the gaps for god were true, and there was a creator, it for sure wouldn't do it the way Biblegod does. If there was a god that was good and moral, he'd either come and sort this mess out, or "It", rather than 'He' because making it a He is part of the problem, would have an afterlife where it was open to all, not just those with the right party card, who read the dear leader's little red book. Christianity makes no sense, friend, and religion is man made. This ought to brutally clear which is why secularism is winning - if indeed it is. You would do well to stop deluding yourself and thinking it makes you a worthy person to be saved.

"I think this food would do you good, if you could just try..but perhaps you can't even try , yet.' (LoR)

I think you are a good person, and a worthy opponent, but your intellectual powers would be better used for logical reasoning, than propping up a ramshackle and wretched bag of Dogmas.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to POI in post #103]

I just demonstrated how it is not a yes or no question. If someone is yes in one sense and no in another, then a simple yes or no answer is not possible.

So which is it...?

A) God made sure these stories are not too credible, to assure he remains hidden?
B) They are plenty credible, which means he does not wish to remain hidden?

I answered before. I said they are not too credible, thus A. Even the story of the resurrection of Jesus is not too credible. We have reasons to doubt.

Your responses are quite the head-scratcher, I must say.... Thus, to recap, for the audience, here is where we look to stand thus far:

--- God may or may not answer prayers, but you have to ask
--- God will only entertain prayer requests if it does not truly reveal his existence
--- This is why you will likely not see answered prayer(s) for amputees, cerebral palsy, and downs syndrome
--- But he will do so, once in a great while, if it is on the down-low, because, again, he does not want to truly reveal his existence

I don't know about all of you folks reading along, but this sounds like you are "joshing" me a bit.... Are you an internet troll? I have to ask... Sorry. Your position is not supported by the Bible. Please re-read the Verses cited in the OP. They do not appear to include such given caveats...

No, he is not a troll. Believers argue as a basic that God cannot reveal himself, or it would nullify Faith. This is a basic of cult-think and I saw the same thing in the UFO world where UFO pilots had to remain hidden while showing themselves only in circumstances that wouldn't convince anyone not already a believer, because...no not Faith but 'not causing panic', was the excuse. As in the mustwatch 'losing Faith' (Theramin Trees) he says that Christianity is the perfect system for covering up a lie. And methods of perpetrating Faith, prayer/worship being one of the ways of doing it, ensure that the self -delusion gets regularly topped up.

[brunumb]

God wants you to know he exists in the sense that God wants you to come to believe in God through experiences and reasoning.

Too bad for you if those experiences and reasoning don't work. He obviously would know just how much it would take to convince any individual, but somehow can't be bothered trying that bit harder. One has to wonder why? Short answer, he's not really there.

[AquinasForGod]

God wants you to know he exists in the sense that God wants you to come to believe in God through experiences and reasoning.

Too bad for you if those experiences and reasoning don't work. He obviously would know just how much it would take to convince any individual, but somehow can't be bothered trying that bit harder. One has to wonder why? Short answer, he's not really there.

Can you re-read what I said again? Thanks. Your response shows me you either did not read it carefully, or I did not word it well enough. Just in case it is the later, I will expound.

God does not want you to believe by forcing his existence upon you. He wants you to believe because you figure it out on your own.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to POI in post #103]

I just demonstrated how it is not a yes or no question. If someone is yes in one sense and no in another, then a simple yes or no answer is not possible.

So which is it...?

A) God made sure these stories are not too credible, to assure he remains hidden?
B) They are plenty credible, which means he does not wish to remain hidden?

I answered before. I said they are not too credible, thus A. Even the story of the resurrection of Jesus is not too credible. We have reasons to doubt.

Your responses are quite the head-scratcher, I must say.... Thus, to recap, for the audience, here is where we look to stand thus far:

--- God may or may not answer prayers, but you have to ask
--- God will only entertain prayer requests if it does not truly reveal his existence
--- This is why you will likely not see answered prayer(s) for amputees, cerebral palsy, and downs syndrome
--- But he will do so, once in a great while, if it is on the down-low, because, again, he does not want to truly reveal his existence

I don't know about all of you folks reading along, but this sounds like you are "joshing" me a bit.... Are you an internet troll? I have to ask... Sorry. Your position is not supported by the Bible. Please re-read the Verses cited in the OP. They do not appear to include such given caveats...

--- God will only entertain prayer requests if it does not truly reveal his existence

This is not exactly accurate. God has answered prayers in such a way that would reveal his existence to the person asking because it makes no difference to them because they are already fully convinced of God. By God healing them or by Mary coming to them and speaking to them, it doesn't raise their faith. It only makes them happy that they were worthy.

I am not trolling. Catholics take reasoning very seriously. If one's interpretation of the bible is illogical, then it is wrong. If it leads to contradictions, then it is wrong.

You cannot fully understand the ways of God. They knew this long ago.

Isaiah 55
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

10 "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven
and do not return there but water the earth,
making it bring forth and sprout,
giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,
11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.