Theists, Some Vexing Follow-up Questions?.?.?

[POI]

In a recent topic ---- > here (viewtopic.php?t=38559&start=60), I posed the following question:

"when one reads this Verse, was the punishment commanded by the consensus of humans, or, god himself?"

Placing this into context, the interlocutor argues that God's moral don't change, but the assigned punishment does --- for whatever reason (undefined).... The above question has yet to be answered or addressed by my debate opponent. So I thought I would offer it here.

For debate:

1) Let's suppose God's morals do not change. Okay, great... Then why in the heck does god command that a priest's daughter is to be burned to death, if she loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father, with NO caveats?

2) If there exists caveats, why are they not mentioned?

3) Was this command ultimately issued/inspired by God, or humans? And how do you know?

4) Exactly when and WHY does this command no longer apply? Or is it still applied by God?

5) How can you distinguish if any passages, at all, are inspired by any god?

[brunumb]

I have some thoughts, yes. The church handled it poorly but is doing better. The church is a living church with flawed human beings doing their best to share the light of God. Evil does its best to corrupt whom they can, especially those in the church.

As to what God should do about it. That is up to him. Hell or purgatory I am sure will be far worse for them if they never repented than just burning by human fire which kills you very quickly.

The corrupting evil is patently within the church itself. Instead of shunting pedophile priests around the diocese, may they should be burned alive instead. I'm sure God won't mind.

[Clownboat]

God knows all, so yes. But God also lets us humans rule this world as we see fit.

Just as it would do if it didn't exist I take note.
If a god affected this world, we would be able to detect these effects. We do not detect things that point to any gods though, so it is prudent to suspend belief in god until such a time (like you do with all god concepts, less one persume).

The problem with children being molested extends to many places, including schools. It is a strange evil that exists in the world. Why do you think it exists at all? It doesn't seem to be a result of evolution, for we have no need to be attracted to undeveloped children. In fact, evolution drives us to be attracted to women with developed hips and breasts, wide hips for child baring and breasts for feeding.

I only see one question here. My answer is "I don't know".

What were your thoughts on my observation that a hell or purgatory does nothing to protect our children raped by priests? Unlike the threat of being burned alive if an unfaithful girls father was a priest. I would think the Bible would be ordering the buring at the stake for child raping priests, but it only mentions a priests daughter. This has got to seem odd to you, no?

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #62]

What were your thoughts on my observation that a hell or purgatory does nothing to protect our children raped by priests? Unlike the threat of being burned alive if an unfaithful girls father was a priest. I would think the Bible would be ordering the buring at the stake for child raping priests, but it only mentions a priests daughter. This has got to seem odd to you, no?

I don't think it seems that odd because remember, I don't believe God ever commanded humans to burn people. Also, the church teaches that hell is not a place but a state of mind. There will be a place for those in the state of mind of hell after the resurrection, though. Then they will have bodies again, which can exist in a place, but souls do not exist in a place. They are metaphysical.

However, there are rules in the OT again kidnapping and murder and rape, which would include child rape. I am sure the Jews hated it just as much as well do today.

But children being violated is a real problem that we humans seem not very good at preventing. God doesn't seem to be in the business of twarting our freewill, so maybe we should all get better at raising our children so they don't grow up being evil, and if some people growing up evil is not preventable, we should figure out ways as a society to protect others from those evil people.

God gave us reasoning for a reason.

[Purple Knight]

He submits himself to the same moral principles he expects of his children.

Willingly, yes?

So here's an understanding you may or may not disagree with. God made people. God made the apple. Every human being is born with at least the capacity to understand right and wrong, by the principles God chose at the very beginning of everything, because that's what was instilled.

Now if, tomorrow, God decides, those principles suck, I am quite above them, he can either make changes to every human so that we still have the capacity to understand the new right and wrong, we won't for example have this innate problem with high authority going by special morals, or he can skip doing that.

And if he selects the latter, our principles and all the words that describe those principles still apply to us, and to everywhere they applied before, because when we follow them, make a sacrifice to do something we perceive as good for instance, or call out evil we see, we're acting on the knowledge we have, and it's no more wrong to be deceived in this way than if some illusionist made us see a monster threatening us and we stabbed it, only to find out it was an innocent human.

The tree and kangaroo analogy still applies, because that is still the understanding we have: That this woody trunk with branches and leaves growing out of it is called a tree. In other words, I might have the power to snap my fingers and change every dictionary, but unless I change the people too, I'm just lying and trying (but failing) to use omnipotence to get away with it.

[Clownboat]

I don't think it seems that odd because remember, I don't believe God ever commanded humans to burn people.

That you don't believe it, matters not when we look at the book that makes claims about your god concept.
47 Bible Verses about Burning People
Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Burning-People

Also, the church teaches that hell is not a place but a state of mind.

It matters not what your church teaches, I've read the Bible.
Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liarsthey will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Matthew 25:46
46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
2 Thessalonians 1:9
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
Matthew 13:50
50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mark 9:43
43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.
Jude 1:7
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Matthew 25:41
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

I take from this that I cannot trust your church. Why do you trust a church over the book itself?

God doesn't seem to be in the business of twarting our freewill,

I don't take note of any of the gods being in the business of anything, thwarting our freewill included, so this is to be expected. Heck, even prayer has shown to be ineffective. Just what business is this god in exactly?

[JehovahsWitness]

Now if, tomorrow, God decides, those principles suck, I am quite above them, he can either make changes to every human so that we still have the capacity to understand the new right and wrong, we won't for example have this innate problem with high authority going by special morals, or he can skip doing that.

If he did that he would be conceding to error ie his first set of morals "suck" and since he is perfect that cannot be the case. Being omnipotent and omniscient there is no situation in which he needs to change his core moral values since the originals must be by definition perfect. He stands by moral perfection not by obligation to others, but by obligation to himself.

But in a hypothetical universe where he does chose to do the above, He would be imperfect and arguable immoral for deliberately holding to a standard that he knew was not the best of all possible options.

An Almighty can snap his fingers and shift the entire universe anyway he wants to, but in abusing this power He cheats nobody but himself (as ultimately He alone would know what he had done). If he's ammoral (or immoral) he would not care, if He is, as the bible presents Him, a God of love he will remain perfect, moral and constant.

[brunumb]

But children being violated is a real problem that we humans seem not very good at preventing. God doesn't seem to be in the business of twarting our freewill, so maybe we should all get better at raising our children so they don't grow up being evil, and if some people growing up evil is not preventable, we should figure out ways as a society to protect others from those evil people.

Take God out of that picture and nothing changes. It is interesting that some religious organisations seem to be set up in such a way as to protect perpetrators of child sexual abuse. One would think that God would at least do something about that.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to brunumb in post #67]

Actually, I don't think that follows. You claim that if God did not exist, then such evils would still exist. Why? What evolutionary reason is there for men to be attracted to undeveloped females that cannot reproduce and that do not have the features of a woman that can reproduce?

There are many evils that do not make sense under naturalism. I would argue that evil existing the way it does makes more sense under theism than naturalism. This is the opposite argument from evil. You can check our Frank Turek's reasoning on this here - https://crossexamined.org/evil-is-a-pow ... t-for-god/

I might make a syllogism argument from evil to God's existence soon.

[brunumb]

[Replying to brunumb in post #67]

Actually, I don't think that follows. You claim that if God did not exist, then such evils would still exist. Why? What evolutionary reason is there for men to be attracted to undeveloped females that cannot reproduce and that do not have the features of a woman that can reproduce?

There are many evils that do not make sense under naturalism. I would argue that evil existing the way it does makes more sense under theism than naturalism. This is the opposite argument from evil. You can check our Frank Turek's reasoning on this here - https://crossexamined.org/evil-is-a-pow ... t-for-god/

I might make a syllogism argument from evil to God's existence soon.

Evolution need not have anything to do with it at all, just warped minds. You don't need any gods for people to engage in bad deeds. Greed and self-satisfaction can be powerful motivators.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to brunumb in post #67]

Actually, I don't think that follows. You claim that if God did not exist, then such evils would still exist. Why? What evolutionary reason is there for men to be attracted to undeveloped females that cannot reproduce and that do not have the features of a woman that can reproduce?

There are many evils that do not make sense under naturalism. I would argue that evil existing the way it does makes more sense under theism than naturalism. This is the opposite argument from evil. You can check our Frank Turek's reasoning on this here - https://crossexamined.org/evil-is-a-pow ... t-for-god/

I might make a syllogism argument from evil to God's existence soon.

Evolution need not have anything to do with it at all, just warped minds. You don't need any gods for people to engage in bad deeds. Greed and self-satisfaction can be powerful motivators.

Why would a species evolve that it has a sexual desire for children?

You are saying that it is a warped mind, but how is such a warped mind possible?