Is it reasonable to assume a creator?

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Sherlock Holmes

Is it reasonable to assume a creator?

Post #1

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

I think most would agree that the universe is a rationally intelligible system. We can discover structures, patterns, laws and symmetries within the system. Things that happen within the system seem to be related to those laws too. So given all this is it not at least reasonable to form the view that it is the work of an intelligent source? Isn't it at least as reasonable or arguably more reasonable to assume that as it is to assume it just so happens to exist with all these laws, patterns just there, with all that takes place in the universe just being fluke?

If we take some of the laws of physics too, we can write these down very succinctly using mathematics, indeed mathematics seems to be a language that is superb for describing things in the universe, a fine example being Maxwell's equations for the electromagnetic field. Theoretical physicists often say they feel that they are discovering these laws too:

Image

So if the universe can be described in a language like mathematics doesn't that too strongly suggest an intelligent source? much as we'd infer if we stumbled upon clay tablets with writing on them or symbols carved into stone? Doesn't discovery of something written in a language, more or less prove an intelligent source?

Image

So isn't this all reasonable? is there anything unreasonable about this position?

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Re: Is it reasonable to assume a creator?

Post #421

Post by Clownboat »

AquinasForGod wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 9:01 am That is an interesting view, but I see no reason to accept it. People born in secular societies, raised by non-religious parents come to God, such as in Sweden. But no adults come to Santa.
From post 409 addressing this specific topic:
"This is easily explained.
When we find out that Santa isn't real, it is confirmed by the authorities that had us believe in the idea in the first place. Even the motive behind telling the Santa story may be explained and understood. Therefore, it has been easily explained as to why we don't return to Santa beliefs. Unlike god beliefs where some will tell you that you will burn in hell for disbelieving. There is no hell threat when kids find out that their parents are Santa so no motive to return to said belief."

Perhaps now you see a reason to accept it?
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Re: Is it reasonable to assume a creator?

Post #422

Post by AquinasForGod »

Clownboat wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:47 pm
AquinasForGod wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 9:01 am That is an interesting view, but I see no reason to accept it. People born in secular societies, raised by non-religious parents come to God, such as in Sweden. But no adults come to Santa.
From post 409 addressing this specific topic:
"This is easily explained.
When we find out that Santa isn't real, it is confirmed by the authorities that had us believe in the idea in the first place. Even the motive behind telling the Santa story may be explained and understood. Therefore, it has been easily explained as to why we don't return to Santa beliefs. Unlike god beliefs where some will tell you that you will burn in hell for disbelieving. There is no hell threat when kids find out that their parents are Santa so no motive to return to said belief."

Perhaps now you see a reason to accept it?
Many theists do not believe in hell or any judgment at all, yet they keep on believing. We can say, maybe they fear the idea of being nothing, but they could just believe in atheistic reincarnation for that.

There are obviously compelling reasons to believe in God because atheists like me end up returning. In fact, I was anti-theist and very much anti-Catholic. I used to point out how evil Yhwh was and how he was a demon. I would show gnostic text that condemns him as such.

To me it seems that there is something in our nature in our being that screams God. A few people can ignore it until they die, but it seems most of us can't.

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Re: Is it reasonable to assume a creator?

Post #423

Post by Clownboat »

< snipped > you not acknowledging why we don't return to Santa.
Do you now see why we don't return to Santa beliefs and how such a thing doesn't compare to returning to religious beliefs?
To me it seems that there is something in our nature in our being that screams God.

This seems true for you. It is also true for my mother. I honestly and whole heartedly believe that there are humans that need a god concepts to help cope with their lives here on earth. I don't blame humans that feel this way, I just wish they could understand that there are plenty of humans that are in fact OK with not knowing or perhaps finding the mystery as entertaining.

Be careful to not project such wants on to others, or you might start seeing the gods in people when in reality, you are just noticing the desire for one.
A few people can ignore it until they die, but it seems most of us can't.
And this is where many humans start to insert competing god concepts while pretending they know to have gotten it right. This is hard to respect and also explains part of the mechnism for how humans created all the available god concepts throughout human history to begin with.

Humans created the gods is a true statement. There are just humans that for some reason believe that all the gods were human invention, except for their preferred god concept. The Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Mayans, Aztecs and on and on all invented their gods, but this one here that I believe in... this one is the one true god and was in fact not a human invention. :shock:
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Re: Is it reasonable to assume a creator?

Post #424

Post by William »

[Replying to Clownboat in post #423]
Humans created the gods is a true statement. There are just humans that for some reason believe that all the gods were human invention, except for their preferred god concept. The Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Mayans, Aztecs and on and on all invented their gods, but this one here that I believe in... this one is the one true god and was in fact not a human invention.
I take this into consideration when examining the overall evidence.

In doing so, it becomes apparent that over the course of human history re culture, there are quite a few things all the cultures share re belief, and it is also apparent that they are mostly ignorant of this fact themselves, but this is changing too.

So I focus on those things which are too similar to be merely coincidence and bear in mind that these can act as evidence for any mind behind creation which might use such as a means of indication that there is indeed more to this story than meets the eye.

It is either that, or argue from a position of assumption based belief that humans invented gods, therefore gods do not exist.

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Re: Is it reasonable to assume a creator?

Post #425

Post by Clownboat »

William wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:17 pm I take this into consideration when examining the overall evidence.

In doing so, it becomes apparent that over the course of human history re culture, there are quite a few things all the cultures share re belief, and it is also apparent that they are mostly ignorant of this fact themselves, but this is changing too.

So I focus on those things which are too similar to be merely coincidence and bear in mind that these can act as evidence for any mind behind creation which might use such as a means of indication that there is indeed more to this story than meets the eye.

It is either that, or argue from a position of assumption based belief that humans invented gods, therefore gods do not exist.
Why do people believe in invisible beings?
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... ble-beings

Why, for example, is belief in invisible, supernatural agents - such as ghosts, angels, dead ancestors, and gods - so widespread?...
The Oxford psychologist Justin Barrett has suggested that the prevalence of beliefs of this kind may in part be explained by our possessing a Hyper-sensitive Agent Detection Device...

Barrett suggests we have evolved to be overly sensitive to agency. We evolved in an environment containing many agents - family members, friends, rivals, predators, prey, and so on. Spotting and understanding other agents helps us survive and reproduce. So we evolved to be sensitive to them - oversensitive in fact. Hear a rustle in the bushes behind you and you instinctively spin round, looking for an agent. Most times, there's no one there - just the wind in the leaves. But, in the environment in which we evolved, on those few occasions when there was an agent present, detecting it might well save your life. Far better to avoid several imaginary predators than be eaten by a real one. Thus evolution will select for an inheritable tendency to not just detect - but over detect - agency. We have evolved to possess (or, perhaps more plausibly, to be) hyper-active agency detectors.

This explains well why we have god concepts going back 10's of thoursands of years. Better than all those gods being real and not just humans asigning agency.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Re: Is it reasonable to assume a creator?

Post #426

Post by William »

[Replying to Clownboat in post #425]

I am unsure as to why you quoted me in your post Clownboat, as I do not see a connect between what I wrote and what the Oxford psychologist Justin Barrett opinions about why gods are invented.

True - I did refer to invisible beings by writing that I focus on those cultural things which are too similar to be merely coincidence and bear in mind that these can act as evidence for any mind behind creation which might use such as a means of indication that there is indeed more to this story than meets the eye.

But I don't see the connect bridging that to what Justin wrote about those cultural similarities;
...belief in invisible, supernatural agents - such as ghosts, angels, dead ancestors, and gods...
Those things have been made visible, through human conceptualizing and dressing up the mind behind creation that I was speaking about.
As such, they are not invisible agents, and I am specifically referring to an actual invisible agency.
Not the "ghosts, angels, dead ancestors, and gods etc" that cultures have dressed that invisible agency up in.

So what Justin wrote does not address what I wrote. Justine just looks at the same thing I am looking at, and sees it differently - all dressed up by being given costumes.

Much in the same way The Flying Spaghetti Monster has been made visible - dressing it up through conceptualizing in order to produce a visible image that one can show to another.
Image
My position has it that the agency of the mind behind creation doesn't cease to exist as a possibility, simply because the costumes are inappropriate imagery.

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Re: Is it reasonable to assume a creator?

Post #427

Post by Purple Knight »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:17 am
AquinasForGod wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 9:01 am ...
But no adults come to Santa.
I don't think that's such the great argument you might think it is.
I tend to agree because how I see it is that children are told Santa isn't real at some point, either by other children, or by their parents.

I think how he's seeing it is that, nobody sees Santa and nobody sees God, so why would some adults decide of their own Reason that God is real, but no adults suddenly decide that Santa is real? Must be because there's better evidence for God.

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Re: Is it reasonable to assume a creator?

Post #428

Post by William »

Purple Knight wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:34 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:17 am
AquinasForGod wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 9:01 am ...
But no adults come to Santa.
I don't think that's such the great argument you might think it is.
I tend to agree because how I see it is that children are told Santa isn't real at some point, either by other children, or by their parents.

I think how he's seeing it is that, nobody sees Santa and nobody sees God, so why would some adults decide of their own Reason that God is real, but no adults suddenly decide that Santa is real? Must be because there's better evidence for God.
Since children know what Santa looks like, that is the big difference. All it takes is some clowns in Santa suits to ruin the illusion...

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Re: Is it reasonable to assume a creator?

Post #429

Post by Purple Knight »

William wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:49 pmSince children know what Santa looks like, that is the big difference. All it takes is some clowns in Santa suits to ruin the illusion...
I do get your point about costumes. But are you saying that if fools dressed up as God and then ruined it, that believers would stop believing? I mean, when greedy pastors milk the congregation and buy $10k Italian suits and eat Kobe beef, that's kind of what they're doing. And people not only still believe in God, sometimes they still follow those pastors.

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Re: Is it reasonable to assume a creator?

Post #430

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Purple Knight wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:34 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:17 am
AquinasForGod wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 9:01 am ...
But no adults come to Santa.
I don't think that's such the great argument you might think it is.
I tend to agree because how I see it is that children are told Santa isn't real at some point, either by other children, or by their parents.

I think how he's seeing it is that, nobody sees Santa and nobody sees God, so why would some adults decide of their own Reason that God is real, but no adults suddenly decide that Santa is real? Must be because there's better evidence for God.
As I'm sure you know, there's a variety of reasons we could suggest here.

What I find odd is the reliance on faith involved with god belief. There's also the multitude of unproven, unprovable claims that follow from that faith / belief.
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