Where's God?

[POI]

Does he pop up in my dreams? Is he the one whom produces my goose-bumps? Is He the one giving me my "moral compass"? Is he only experienced during deep meditation? If I have enough faith, will he appear to me? But seriously. Where is he? I was a Christian for decades. I earnestly prayed for him to reach me, to no avail.

For debate: Why have I not felt his presence?

A) I never tried hard enough; lack faith
B) He does not want to reveal Himself to me (yet)
C) Evil is blocking the request(s)
D) I'm too dumb to realize he's reaching me
E) He's not really there at all <- Current conclusion

Do not answer yet. This topic has spawned from another unrelated topic. I decided to devote this large topic to itself. Below are some premises:

P1) does god exist? (dunno)
P2) does god want a relationship with all, especially the ones who seek him (apparently so)
P3) is god capable of communicating (apparently so)
P4) can god communicate his message in a way in which the recipient could no longer deny (apparently so)
P5) have I asked for this communication earnestly and repetitively (YES)
P6) does the Bible state god answers the call to all who seek him (YES)

At best, god has opted not to contact me YET. And this would be after decades of actively seeking him. Without any emotion, I'm logically left with 2 options.

A) God is not really there <- Current conclusion.
B) God is not adhering to his promise (yet).

[brunumb]

[Replying to Shem Yoshi in post #129]

The original exchange:

Certainly a profound question, 'why is there anything rather then nothing?"... I suppose there ought to be a purpose for existence, rather then no purpose at all, for our universe seems to be in order and with laws. That might suggest the universe having purpose rather then having no purpose and existing in some kind of chaotic purposeless void.

Have a look at a few episodes of "How the Universe Works", particularly the ones dealing with black holes, neutron stars, quasars and the like, then reconsider the notions of order and purpose. Why should existence require a purpose? It just seems to give some people a security blanket to hang onto, but I see it as sheer hubris to think that this vast universe was somehow made for us.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to brunumb in post #106

You didn't explain why God gets off the hook.

The only way to keep God on the hook is to get material existence off the hook.

Nor have you explained why material existence needs to be accounted for.

Until it's accounted for, it can't with certainty be said to account for itself.

Somehow it exists, in the same way that I suppose you suggest that God just exists. Perhaps you give God some attributes that allow it to create the material. The material may have attributes that we are not aware of that will account for its existence.

Those attributes would themselves have to be material, wouldn't they? Again, that would be invoking material existence to explain itself, a circular argument. And you don't seem equally willing to entertain the notion that God might have attributes we're not aware of.

[Shem Yoshi]

[Replying to Shem Yoshi in post #129]

purpose
/ˈpəːpəs/
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noun
noun: purpose; plural noun: purposes

1.
the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.

ought
/ɔːt/
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verb
modal verb: ought

1.
used to indicate duty or correctness, typically when criticizing someone's actions.
"they ought to respect the law"
used to indicate a desirable or expected state.
"he ought to be able to take the initiative"
used to give or ask for advice.

Lets assume really quick that there IS purpose (for the sake of this discussion)... It can be anything you want, purely for the sake of debate... Can an ought be disassociated from a purpose? Give me any purpose for the sake of this discussion that is not an ought. Or give me an ought, that is not a purpose.


I dont know what you are asking for. Lets assume there is some over all purpose like what you were asking for.. Is it NOT an ought?

[PolytheistWitch]

People tend to not take into account that maybe the God of Abraham just doesn't want to work with them. In polytheism you don't work with every single god that exists in a Pantheon. For instance I don't work with every single Germanic god and goddess. There are maybe one or two that I honor and work with on a daily basis. And then there's some I work with on a broader basis. And then there's some you just honor because that's what that particular day asks for that particular task asked for. But when you say something like that people freak out because the God of Abraham is different and there's no other gods besides him and if he doesn't want me I'll just be an atheist. So more than likely it's not you, god's don't want to work with every single person that comes along. There are personality conflicts. Jesus on the other hand is an ascended master and they work with pretty much anybody that asks.

[Shem Yoshi]

The witch brings up a valid point... When asking 'why dont you believe the God of Abraham?', well the truth be told the God of Abraham might have made it this way...

For example Romans 8 and 9 talk of predestination and how God can harden the heart of men (pharaoh). 'who can resist God's will?' Paul posed a question. If God is the potter, and able to mold a person like clay, Paul questioned why are some molded into dishonor, and some to honor? (Romans 9:21)?

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes [honor] and some for common use [dishonor]?
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-11 also should be noted... Here scripture talks of people refusing to "love the truth and be saved" and it says "for this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie..."

None the less, in either case a faithful person can still be faithful to God. Even in dishonor or "common use" Paul ask 'what is it to you?'...

The truth is i ponder the power of God all the time. God could have the power to give you everything you want, and truly some people are given much more then other people, or God could make you have nothing and a beggar or a thief for your own food. Either case I believe God's grace is above any situation, and in either case "the law is fulfilled by faith" (Romans 3:31)...

(The scripture I brought in is meant to inform what Christianity teaches rather then to be taken as authoritative... if the question is why would the Abraham God not reveal himself to you it would be necessary to understand who the Abraham God is)

[JoeyKnothead]

God gives me free will, then hardens my heart.

Then we I don't worship him, he takes me out behind the woodshed.

Ya just can't win with this guy.

[brunumb]

Those attributes would themselves have to be material, wouldn't they? Again, that would be invoking material existence to explain itself, a circular argument. And you don't seem equally willing to entertain the notion that God might have attributes we're not aware of.

I don't understand this need for anything to account for itself.

[brunumb]

Lets assume really quick that there IS purpose (for the sake of this discussion)... It can be anything you want, purely for the sake of debate...

In that case please begin by outlining what you see as the purpose of the universe.

[Shem Yoshi]

Lets assume really quick that there IS purpose (for the sake of this discussion)... It can be anything you want, purely for the sake of debate...

In that case please begin by outlining what you see as the purpose of the universe.

What I see as purpose. I believe I ought to get this job im interviewing for this week. I ought to pray more. I ought to live like Christ. I ought to spread the Gospel.

And that said. you completely ignore my question of how you separate ought from purpose... What are you trying to get at? Are you fishing for some answer?

I suppose ultimately i put my faith in God. Sometimes my plans change at no result of my own, and I have faith God has a destination for my life, and he has a purpose for me.

Maybe it is to be a friend of someone in need? Maybe it is to sow seeds for God? Or to comfort someone morning? Maybe its to pray for your enemies, and to give to those in need? Maybe it is to love others and to love God? Maybe to lay down my life for another person?

[JoeyKnothead]

What I see as purpose. I believe I ought to get this job im interviewing for this week. I ought to pray more. I ought to live like Christ. I ought to spread the Gospel.

Purpose and ought are both subjective terms, so will only get you subjective (if happy) conclusions.

And that said. you completely ignore my question of how you separate ought from purpose... What are you trying to get at? Are you fishing for some answer?
...

When dealing with so many theists, ya can't separate em. Where the theist thinks their god has some god purpose, they think everybody ought act their way.