Can we talk about the uncomfortable connection between Religion and Mental Illness?

[boatsnguitars]

I'm not going to suggest all religious people are mentally ill, just to waylay fears. I believe everyone has a unique mind; and I wouldn't call mentally ill people crazy. I suffer from a form of mental illness (ADHD, Depression).

I would like to have an open and honest conversation about the role of mental illness in religion, especially as people become more devout and more extreme. (Usually, when someone becomes obsessed with something it's considered unhealthy, but in religion we see the most obsessed honored by the less faithful, for one example of how this conversation might go).

I think we could add many anecdotes. The latest I just happened to read:

A Pennsylvania woman who went missing more than 30 years ago and whose family believed she was dead has been found alive in Puerto Rico, resolving a decades-long mystery, the authorities said on Friday.
The woman, Patricia Kopta, now 83, was found on the island after she shared tidbits about her past to nursing home employees who had been taking care of her for years, Chief Brian Kohlhepp of the Ross Township Police Department said at a news conference.
....
Back home, Ms. Kopta, who was nicknamed “the sparrow,” was known to wander the streets of downtown Pittsburgh as a street preacher. She also had a history of mental health struggles before she disappeared at the age of 52, her family and the police chief said.

Street preachers are very common in NYC, and all of them seem mentally ill. Most cult leaders seem to be mentally ill.

The Role of Psychotic Disorders in Religious History Considered
Evan D. Murray, M.D., Miles G. Cunningham, M.D., Ph.D., and Bruce H. Price, M.D.

Published Online:1 Oct 2012https://doi.org/10.1176/appi.neuropsych.11090214

Abstract
The authors have analyzed the religious figures Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and St. Paul from a behavioral, neurologic, and neuropsychiatric perspective to determine whether new insights can be achieved about the nature of their revelations. Analysis reveals that these individuals had experiences that resemble those now defined as psychotic symptoms, suggesting that their experiences may have been manifestations of primary or mood disorder-associated psychotic disorders. The rationale for this proposal is discussed in each case with a differential diagnosis. Limitations inherent to a retrospective diagnostic examination are assessed. Social models of psychopathology and group dynamics are proposed as explanations for how followers were attracted and new belief systems emerged and were perpetuated. The authors suggest a new DSM diagnostic subcategory as a way to distinguish this type of psychiatric presentation. These findings support the possibility that persons with primary and mood disorder-associated psychotic symptoms have had a monumental influence on the shaping of Western civilization. It is hoped that these findings will translate into increased compassion and understanding for persons living with mental illness.

A man in his late 20s with paranoid schizophrenia explained during a neurological evaluation that he could read minds and that for years he had heard voices revealing things about friends and strangers alike. He believed he was selected by God to provide guidance for mankind. Antipsychotic medications prescribed by his psychiatrists diminished these abilities and reduced the voices, and therefore he would not take them. He asked, “How do you know the voices aren’t real?” “How do you know I am not The Messiah?” He affirmed, “God and angels talked to people in the Bible.”

Later, we reflected on what he had said. He raised poignant questions that are rarely discussed in academic medicine. Every day, physicians, nurses, psychologists, and social workers alike encounter and care for people who experience psychotic symptoms. About 1% of emergency room visits and 0.5% of all primary care visits in the United States are related to psychotic symptoms.1,2 As many as 60% of those with schizophrenia have religious grandiose delusions consisting of believing they are a saint, God, the devil, a prophet, Jesus, or some other important person.3 Diminished insight about having a mental disorder is part and parcel of the condition, occurring in 30%–50% of persons with schizophrenia.4 How do we explain to our patients that their psychotic symptoms are not supernatural intimations when our civilization recognizes similar phenomena in revered religious figures? On what basis do we distinguish between the experiences of psychiatric patients and those of religious figures in history?

A review of the medical literature revealed little discussion of these specific issues utilizing modern neuropsychiatric and behavioral neurologic principles. An examination of the revelation experiences of prominent religious figures was needed to determine whether new insights could be achieved about their nature through the application of neuropsychiatric and behavioral neurologic principles. We undertook this examination with the intent of promoting scholarly dialogue about the rational limits of human experience and to educate persons living with mental illness, healthcare providers, and the general public that persons with psychotic symptoms may have had a considerable influence on the development of Western civilization. The selection of personalities for analysis was based on 1) the existence of narratives recounting the individual’s mystical experiences and behaviors; 2) the potential similarity of these experiences to psychiatric phenomena; 3) the high degree of impact their life stories had on Western civilization in terms of influencing themes found in literature and art, religious thought and practice, philosophy, concepts of social order, and jurisprudence. The following is a retrospective diagnostic examination of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and St Paul. It is hoped that this investigation will help translate the veneration, love, and devotion felt by many for these religious figures into increased compassion and understanding for persons with mental illness.

https://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/doi/ ... h.11090214

Please read the article. I'm not claiming it is 100% correct, or that they've even claimed to have determined the mental states of the Abraham, Jesus, Paul, etc. but it will provide a good basis for the discussion. Keep it respectful, please.

[Jose Fly]

I guess I'd have to see a comprehensive study that shows a correlation between being religious and mental illness before I would reach any conclusions, tentative or otherwise. However, just from an anecdotal standpoint, I have a very distinct recollection of a time I was an early teen sitting in church and listening to the congregation say their prayer requests, and realizing...."OMG, pretty much everyone here is kinda messed up!" But interestingly, I later appreciated how it could very well be that them having "messed up" lives was a big part of why they were religious in the first place. I could see how it provided them reassurance, comfort, and hope.

Additionally, while it's not mental illness, there have been plenty of studies showing an inverse relationship between religiosity and intelligence (the more religious tend to be less intelligent).

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23921675/

A meta-analysis of 63 studies showed a significant negative association between intelligence and religiosity. The association was stronger for college students and the general population than for participants younger than college age; it was also stronger for religious beliefs than religious behavior. For college students and the general population, means of weighted and unweighted correlations between intelligence and the strength of religious beliefs ranged from -.20 to -.25 (mean r = -.24). Three possible interpretations were discussed. First, intelligent people are less likely to conform and, thus, are more likely to resist religious dogma. Second, intelligent people tend to adopt an analytic (as opposed to intuitive) thinking style, which has been shown to undermine religious beliefs. Third, several functions of religiosity, including compensatory control, self-regulation, self-enhancement, and secure attachment, are also conferred by intelligence. Intelligent people may therefore have less need for religious beliefs and practices.

IMO, #2 makes the most sense and best aligns with my experiences with very religious people (fundamentalists). I can't tell you how many times, after interacting with a fundamentalist, I've thought to myself "Man, they are completely lacking in critical thinking skills!" Creationists are the poster child for that.

Regarding street preachers, a while ago a former street preacher wrote a blog post where he explained what motivated him to go out into crowded events, turn on a bullhorn, and shout insults at people (you're a sinner, you're damned, you're going to hell). According to him, the primary goal isn't actually to convert people; instead it's mostly about triggering people to yell, scream, and even physically confront you. Then when the day is over, you go back to your congregation, tell them about all the abuse you endured from the evil hoards, and then bask in the praise for "going into the lion's den" and emerging victorious. If you can throw in a few cases where you converted someone, even better!

That's why the best response is to simply ignore them, thereby depriving them of what they crave. I was at a tailgateing party one time and a street preacher showed up with his giant signs and bullhorn. He mostly hung out near the porta-potties and yelled at people while they waited in line. Early on, the tailgaters were pretty sparse, so the street preacher would approach people individually. When he came to me and started yelling and waving his sign, I just turned my back to him. He kept trying to get around me and get to my face, and I just kept turning and ignoring him. He very quickly gave up and moved on to the next guy, who started yelling back at him. As soon as the guy started yelling obscenities at him, the street preacher smiled and just amped up his rhetoric even more.

To me, that confirmed what I'd read. They really are trying to goad people into angry responses. But I don't know if I'd call that a mental illness. It's weird, kinda pathetic, and childish, but that's about it.

[Miles]

I was particularly interested in the article's observations about Jesus.

"Jesus

Jesus is the foundation figure of Christianity, who is thought to have lived between 7–2 BCE and 26–36 CE. The New Testament (NT) recalls Jesus as having experienced and shown behavior closely resembling the DSM-IV-TR–defined phenomena of AHs, VHs, delusions, referential thinking (see Figure 3), paranoid-type (PS subtype) thought content, and hyperreligiosity (see Table 1). He also did not appear to have signs or symptoms of disorganization, negative psychiatric symptoms, cognitive impairment, or debilitating mood disorder symptoms. NT accounts about Jesus mention no infirmity. In terms of potential causes of perceptual and behavioral changes, it might be asked whether starvation and metabolic derangements were present. The hallucinatory-like experiences that Jesus had in the desert while he fasted for 40 days (Luke 4:1–13) may have been induced by starvation and metabolic derangements. Arguing against these as explanations for all of his experiences would be that he had mystical or revelation experiences preceding his fasting in the desert and then during the period afterward. During these periods, there is no suggestion of starvation or metabolic derangement. If anything, the stories about Jesus and his followers suggest that they ate relatively well, as compared with the followers of his contemporary, John the Baptist (Luke 7:33–34). Epilepsy-associated psychotic symptoms are possible, but Jesus is not recounted as having any of the previously-mentioned common hallmarks of epilepsy. A decline in his occupational and social functioning cannot be established because of a lack of sufficient information. His experiences appear to have occurred over the course of at least the year before his death. The absence of physical maladies or apparent epilepsy leaves primary psychiatric etiologies as more plausible. As seen with the previous cases, Jesus’ experiences can be potentially conceptualized within the framework of PS or psychosis NOS. Other reasonable possibilities might include bipolar and schizoaffective disorders.

There is a 5%–10% lifetime risk of suicide in persons with schizophrenia.39 Suicide is defined as a self-inflicted death with evidence of an intention to end one’s life. The NT recounts Jesus’ awareness that people intended to kill him and his taking steps to avoid peril until the time at which he permitted his apprehension. In advance, he explained to his followers the necessity of his death as prelude for his return (Matthew 16:21–28; Mark 8:31; John 16:16–28). If this occurred in the manner described, then Jesus appears to have deliberately placed himself in circumstances wherein he anticipated his execution. Although schizophrenia is associated with an increased risk of suicide, this would not be a typical case. The more common mood-disorder accompaniments of suicide, such as depression, hopelessness, and social isolation, were not present,40 but other risk factors, such as age and male gender, were present. Suicide-by-proxy is described as “any incident in which a suicidal individual causes his or her death to be carried out by another person.”41,42 There is a potential parallel of Jesus’ beliefs and behavior leading up to his death to that of one who premeditates a form of suicide-by-proxy."

(Emphasis my own)

"According to the newest version of the DSM, psychotic disorder not otherwise specified (P NOS) has been recategorized as the following conditions:

unspecified schizophrenia spectrum (USS) and other psychiatric disorder (ODD)
other specified schizophrenia spectrum (OSSS) and other psychiatric disorder (ODD)

These categories refer to symptoms that are typical of a schizophrenia spectrum or other psychotic disorder diagnosis. Symptoms that may be present include:

delusions
hallucinations
disorganized speech
grossly disorganized or catatonic behavior
flat affect
source

.

[JoeyKnothead]

Sure we can talk about religion and mental illness.

This atheist, who suffers mental illness, well, there's that.

While mental illness can be associated with holding certain religious beliefs, I find this line of argumentation fails to reflect on the vast, overconsuming majority of theists who, but here in the OP for their religion, would not be considered at all to suffer em any form of mental illness.

I contrast this against those extremists who are fed a diet of extreme ideas.

I've been in there with the mentally ill. I've met God several times, Jesus another bunch of times, and more'n a Satan or two. These folks are typically diagnosed with "delusions of grandeur", or whatever term has become more PC these days.

In a bit of a turn, my rare but there delusions of grandeur are not religious, but typically form around my thinking I'm some brilliant ubereinsteinian brain. Let that sink in, if ya want an example of mental illness

Conclusions?

If the rhetorical you think you don't suffer some form of mental illness, that's the first sign you do.

[Purple Knight]

I have a very distinct recollection of a time I was an early teen sitting in church and listening to the congregation say their prayer requests, and realizing...."OMG, pretty much everyone here is kinda messed up!" But interestingly, I later appreciated how it could very well be that them having "messed up" lives was a big part of why they were religious in the first place.

Right. Any study would have to carefully normalise for this "cure effect" before concluding that ibuprofen gives people headaches because of the shocking statistical correlation between people having headaches and taking ibuprofen.

In a bit of a turn, my rare but there delusions of grandeur are not religious, but typically form around my thinking I'm some brilliant ubereinsteinian brain. Let that sink in, if ya want an example of mental illness

Conclusions?

If the rhetorical you think you don't suffer some form of mental illness, that's the first sign you do.

Yeah me too. Just because it's true doesn't mean it ain't a delusion.

What you're getting at, is that when you start losing that part of the brain that kicks back at you when you think something crazy, is when you start becoming crazy. Maybe it's just called restraint. Maybe it's willingness to accept that you can be wrong. Maybe it's that time when ad populum isn't a fallacy, and you realise that if you're really the only one who sees it a certain way, you're likely to be wrong. That last one is tricky but it's pulled me back from a lot that's actually quite insane. I check myself by what the masses think all the time, not because they can't be wrong, but mainly because the government can't lock them all up.

[mgb]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #1]
I'm not a fan of psychoanalysis. You can take almost any person in the world and, by fanciful interpretation of their lives, 'show' that they are mad as hatters. A lot of 'analysis' is just make-it-up-as-you-go-along. Practical counselling seems much better than the florid theories some of these people come up with.

If a person is ill and has delusions those delusions will be framed in terms of their cultural surroundings so a communist atheist is not likely to think he is Jesus Christ. But a person with a religious upbringing might - if they become deluded - experience delusions in the context of his/her religion. So you got to separate out that one.

Another factor is that different people have vastly varying passions/capabilities. Most people are not capable of greater things such as great art, mathematics, mysticism, tyranny, despotism, criminality etc. It is the passionate people who lead and make the world. But passion and brilliance can go either way; Passion can make a person want to rule the world or create great literature or music. What they do with their passion is what matters. Some people say that genius and madness are closely aligned.

Passionate, aware people can do great things - great good or great evil. Most people are not capable of madness or genius.

[boatsnguitars]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #1]
I'm not a fan of psychoanalysis. You can take almost any person in the world and, by fanciful interpretation of their lives, 'show' that they are mad as hatters. A lot of 'analysis' is just make-it-up-as-you-go-along. Practical counselling seems much better than the florid theories some of these people come up with.

If a person is ill and has delusions those delusions will be framed in terms of their cultural surroundings so a communist atheist is not likely to think he is Jesus Christ. But a person with a religious upbringing might - if they become deluded - experience delusions in the context of his/her religion. So you got to separate out that one.

Another factor is that different people have vastly varying passions/capabilities. Most people are not capable of greater things such as great art, mathematics, mysticism, tyranny, despotism, criminality etc. It is the passionate people who lead and make the world. But passion and brilliance can go either way; Passion can make a person want to rule the world or create great literature or music. What they do with their passion is what matters. Some people say that genius and madness are closely aligned.

Passionate, aware people can do great things - great good or great evil. Most people are not capable of madness or genius.

I agree, almost completely - yet - I can't avoid noticing that Religion seems to have a special place in our human psychology. And, like it or not, psychology is a real and important feature of humanity, society, etc.

I also can't but help notice the mental illness that seems to orbit the Arts, for example. Yes, mental illness is shown to affect all walks of life, but we all are aware of areas were it congregates.

Specifically, why does Religion attract the mentally ill - or maybe it doesn't? But it's hard not to see - say - Revelations as the rantings of a mad man.

Even more specifically, it appears that most Hindus see their religion as allegory (Hanuman, e.g.). Any Hindu that thinks those things are literal would be looked at as possibly mentally ill (I think we'd agree).
Likewise, it would be no problem if people read the Bible as allegory, but it appears many people are told (and do) treat it as historical fact. There is no difference between Jesus and Hanuman: both are impossible with known science, both are possible with an omnipotent God pulling the strings.

Mental illness is pervasive, but what leads people to take Religion so seriously. When a mentally ill person writes a book like Lord of the Rings, we don't think it must be real (some people do), but with Religion, people are ostracized if they don't accept Joseph Smith read some golden plates.

Religion is unique: the stories are uniquely outlandish/grandiose, yet, average people are conditioned to believe the stories - and even commit violence if others don't agree. The people committing the violence, and the ones most insistent on the stories being True are usually the most mentally unstable among us - and they tend to be the Clergy!

Think of the obviously mentally ill guy screaming "The End is Nigh" on the street corner. Where did he get that idea? From the seemingly sober and coherent man on the pulpit spouting the exact same thing!

This is not normal behavior.

Nor is this:

https://www.cracked.com/blog/6-stories- ... ion-insane

[mgb]

I agree, almost completely - yet - I can't avoid noticing that Religion seems to have a special place in our human psychology. And, like it or not, psychology is a real and important feature of humanity, society, etc.

Psychology is just another name for 'spiritual'. The psyche IS the spirit.

I also can't but help notice the mental illness that seems to orbit the Arts, for example. Yes, mental illness is shown to affect all walks of life, but we all are aware of areas were it congregates.

Arts, yes. It is the people of substance who go to the limits of things, for better or worse.

Specifically, why does Religion attract the mentally ill - or maybe it doesn't? But it's hard not to see - say - Revelations as the rantings of a mad man.

Well I guess mentally ill people stand out more because the are more noticeable than, say, a holy monk living in solitude.

The people committing the violence, and the ones most insistent on the stories being True are usually the most mentally unstable among us - and they tend to be the Clergy!

I'm not so sure. Communist countries can be brutally criminal. And often the most violent people among us are 'respectable' people in suits and ties who deceive and exploit ordinary people. They would not pass the test of mental illness and may not be doing anything illegal (like starting legal wars) but they are still criminal.