Jesus is God - 1 Corinthians 8:6

[Wootah]

5 For even if there are “gods” in heaven and on earth (as indeed there are many so-called “gods” and “lords”), 6 yet for us

there is only one God, the Father,
from whom everything came into being
and for whom we live.
And there is only one Lord, Jesus the Messiah,[c]
through whom everything came into being
and through whom we live.

In greek https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/8-6.htm

It uses the same greek wording ta panta for the father and the son. So if you believe the father is before creation you have to believe the son is before creation.

Does this demonstrate that Jesus existed before creation and that either you think there were two gods or Jesus and the Father are one God in some way?

Youtube:

[Wootah]

For even if there are “gods” in heaven and on earth (as indeed there are many so-called “gods” and “lords”), 6 yet for us there is only one God, the Father,...
In greek https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/8-6.htm

• There are many gods but only one ALMIGHY God and Creator , YHWH. The Father

• Jesus(the Word) is himself a "Mighty God" but not equal to the Father in power, age or position.

Not on topic mate. ...

I see.



Was Jesus equal to his Father when he was i heaven in spirit form?
viewtopic.php?p=1115267#p1115267

Debate in the thread please. I personally find your way of debating against the nature of debate. I will ask mods to do something about it but I fear it has gone on too long.

This is a link to discuss your non debating style: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=41145

[Wootah]

[Replying to Wootah in post #1]
How can you say that I Corinthians 8:6 shows that the Father is the Son? That very verse shows unequivocably that they are separate and that it is the Father who alone is God, and everything comes FROM Him.

"To us there is ONE GOD, the FATHER of whom are all things...and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things..."(KJV)

Very very clear. One God, the Father, and He has had all things under Him alone (OF whom are all things). Another version makes it even more clear.

"For us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things...and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things..." (NASB)

The Father has all the power and authority and by His power all things were created. He GAVE power and authority to Jesus Christ and all things were created THROUGH him. Sam Shamoun doesn't know what he's talking about.

I didn't say that the Father is the Son.

I am arguing that if you want to read the Bible in Greek and want to say the father is before creation you also have to read the same Greek and acknowledge the son is before creation.

https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/8-6.htm

This is what it says about the Father

ἡμῖν to us
hēmin
εἷς [there is] one
heis
Θεὸς God,
Theos
ὁ the
ho
Πατήρ, Father,
Patēr
ἐξ of
ex
οὗ whom [are]
hou
τὰ the things
ta
πάντα all,
panta

This is what it says about Jesus

εἷς one
heis
Κύριος Lord,
Kyrios
Ἰησοῦς Jesus
Iēsous
Χριστός, Christ,
Christos
δι’ by
di’
οὗ whom [are]
hou
τὰ the things
ta
πάντα all,
panta


It uses ta panta for the Father and the Son. So if you believe the things all were created by the Father, then why change the understanding for the son when it uses the same Greek?

[JehovahsWitness]

Debate in the thread please. I personally find your way of debating against the nature of debate. I will ask mods to do something about it but I fear it has gone on too long.

If you believe my POSTS are off topic you are free to report them. Otherwise I do believe most devices give the user the ability to scroll on past a post. Alternatively, there is also the provision of an "ignore" button for those that do not wish to see POSTS they find disagreeable.

My post was not off topic since it delt with the scripture provided in the OP. The OP question was asking how 1 Cor 8:5 relates to the idea of there being (to quote the OP) "two gods". I explained how many gods there are and how this in no way equates to both being equal in power, rank and age. Any charge that my post was off topic is totally unfounded.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[JehovahsWitness]

I am arguing that if you want to read the Bible in Greek and want to say the father is before creation you also have to read the same Greek and acknowledge the son is before creation.

DOES THE SON'S EXISTENCE PREDATE "CREATION"?

Yes, the bible is quite clear, all things were created through the son which means Jesus (The Word) existed before the creation of the angelic sons of God and the physical universe.

WOULD THIS NOT MEAN THE SON HAS EXISTED AS LONG AS THE FATHER ?

No, since the bible'indicates Jesus is himself a created being (ses Col1:15, 16) The "creation" Paul refers to must be the creation of all OTHER created things, ie. the creative works that came about as a collaboration between YHWH and his Son.

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viewtopic.php?p=1129894#p1129894

To learn more please go to other posts related to ....

GOD, JESUS ROLE IN CREATION and ... "TRINITY TEXTS" DEBUNKED

[Wootah]

I was reading 1 Chronicles 28 tonight and this caught my attention

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=ISV

David is given the plans to build the temple and also he collects the resources

BUT

It is built by and through Solomon.

So who built the temple - it makes sense to say the Son did.

A very intersting parallel

also, neither David or Solomon are firstborn by birth but by pre-eminence.

I love how once you see something in the Bible you can't unsee it.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Wootah in post #1]
How can you say that I Corinthians 8:6 shows that the Father is the Son? That very verse shows unequivocably that they are separate and that it is the Father who alone is God, and everything comes FROM Him.

"To us there is ONE GOD, the FATHER of whom are all things...and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things..."(KJV)

Very very clear. One God, the Father, and He has had all things under Him alone (OF whom are all things). Another version makes it even more clear.

"For us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things...and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things..." (NASB)

The Father has all the power and authority and by His power all things were created. He GAVE power and authority to Jesus Christ and all things were created THROUGH him. Sam Shamoun doesn't know what he's talking about.

I didn't say that the Father is the Son.

I am arguing that if you want to read the Bible in Greek and want to say the father is before creation you also have to read the same Greek and acknowledge the son is before creation.

https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/8-6.htm

This is what it says about the Father

ἡμῖν to us
hēmin
εἷς [there is] one
heis
Θεὸς God,
Theos
ὁ the
ho
Πατήρ, Father,
Patēr
ἐξ of
ex
οὗ whom [are]
hou
τὰ the things
ta
πάντα all,
panta

This is what it says about Jesus

εἷς one
heis
Κύριος Lord,
Kyrios
Ἰησοῦς Jesus
Iēsous
Χριστός, Christ,
Christos
δι’ by
di’
οὗ whom [are]
hou
τὰ the things
ta
πάντα all,
panta


It uses ta panta for the Father and the Son. So if you believe the things all were created by the Father, then why change the understanding for the son when it uses the same Greek?

But other scriptures can back up the fact that Jesus is the first thing created, by God alone:

"He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." (Colossians 1:15, NASB) It shows two things: That Jesus is the "image" or the reflection of God (and God being invisible which no man has seen), because Jesus imitates Him so well, and also that Jesus is the first thing created. After he was created, he made all other things with the power given to him by God. Jesus is a separate Being from "God," as we can clearly see.

What other versions translate that scripture the same way? Did all of these translators misunderstand the meaning of the words in Greek?

Revised Standard Version
King James Version
21st Century New Testament
New American Bible
The Holy Family Edition of the Catholic Bible
New Jerusalem Bible
James Moffatt Translation
Contemporary English Version
J.N. Darby Translation

I could go on. Interestingly, the Moffatt Translation has this to say: "He is the likeness of the unseen God, born first, before all creation..." He makes it pretty clear that Jesus is LIKE God (but not God) and he was created first.

The Contemporary English Version also says: "Christ is exactly like God [but not God] who cannot be seen. He is the first-born Son, superior to all creation."

Bruce M. Metzger sums up a discussion of Colossians this way: "By way of conclusion, let it be emphasized again that no single manuscript and no one group of manuscripts exists which the textual critic may follow Mechanically. All known witnesses of the N.T. are to a greater or less extent mixed texts, and even the earliest manuscripts are not free from egregious errors. Although in very many cases the textual critic is able to ascertain without residual doubt which reading must have stood in the original, there are not a few other cases where he can come only to a tentative decision based on an equivocal balancing of probabilities. Occasionally none of the variant readings will commend itself as original, and he will be compelled either to choose the reading which he judges to be the least unsatisfactory or to indulge in conjectural emendation. In textual criticism, as in other areas of historical research, one must seek not only to learn what can be known, but also to become aware of what, because of conflicting witnesses, cannot be known." (The Text of the New Testament/ Its Transmission, Corruption and Restoration, 1992, p. 246)

What can we conclude from what he has said? He has a point. What we end up with is the fact that we must seek corroborating scripture elsewhere in the Bible. If other verses back up what we have decided on, we are probably on the right track. What can back up Colossians 1:15?

Revelation 3:14, KJV: "...These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God."

[Wootah]

I was reading 1 Chronicles 28 tonight and this caught my attention

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=ISV

David is given the plans to build the temple and also he collects the resources

BUT

It is built by and through Solomon.

So who built the temple - it makes sense to say the Son did.

A very intersting parallel

also, neither David or Solomon are firstborn by birth but by pre-eminence.

I love how once you see something in the Bible you can't unsee it.

So in the case of 1 Chronicles 28 - who built the temple? David or Solomon?

[Wootah]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #16]

I picked one of those translations at random:

8:6 still for us there is one God, the Father, from whom all things come and for whom we exist; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things come and through whom we exist.

1_Corinthians - Jerusalem bibleJerusalem bible

I don't see how that helps your case.

Even James Moffat says Jesus was born first before creation. I mean it is cringey and I can't be bothered digging into his theology etc. Can you show me in the greek where the words born first exist?

Your Bruce M Metzger quote needs to be dismissed because this forum thinks the Bible is the Word of God. Bruce thinks it has 'egregious errors'.

Revelation 3:14, KJV: "...These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God."

Whoops KJV isn't infallible ... who knew.

https://biblehub.com/revelation/3-14.htm#lexicon

Greek
To the
τῷ (tō)
Article - Dative Masculine Singular
Strong's 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.

angel
ἀγγέλῳ (angelō)
Noun - Dative Masculine Singular
Strong's 32: From aggello; a messenger; especially an 'angel'; by implication, a pastor.

of the
τῆς (tēs)
Article - Genitive Feminine Singular
Strong's 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.

church
ἐκκλησίας (ekklēsias)
Noun - Genitive Feminine Singular
Strong's 1577: From a compound of ek and a derivative of kaleo; a calling out, i.e. a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation.

in
ἐν (en)
Preposition
Strong's 1722: In, on, among. A primary preposition denoting position, and instrumentality, i.e. A relation of rest; 'in, ' at, on, by, etc.

Laodicea
Λαοδικείᾳ (Laodikeia)
Noun - Dative Feminine Singular
Strong's 2993: From a compound of laos and dike; Laodicia, a place in Asia Minor.

write:
γράψον (grapson)
Verb - Aorist Imperative Active - 2nd Person Singular
Strong's 1125: A primary verb; to 'grave', especially to write; figuratively, to describe.

These [are]
Τάδε (Tade)
Demonstrative Pronoun - Accusative Neuter Plural
Strong's 3592: This here, this, that, he, she, it.

the words
λέγει (legei)
Verb - Present Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 3004: (a) I say, speak; I mean, mention, tell, (b) I call, name, especially in the pass., (c) I tell, command.

of the
ὁ (ho)
Article - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.

Amen,
Ἀμήν (Amēn)
Hebrew Word
Strong's 281: Of Hebrew origin; properly, firm, i.e. trustworthy; adverbially, surely.

the
ὁ (ho)
Article - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.

faithful
πιστὸς (pistos)
Adjective - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 4103: Trustworthy, faithful, believing. From peitho; objectively, trustworthy; subjectively, trustful.

and
καὶ (kai)
Conjunction
Strong's 2532: And, even, also, namely.

TRUE
ἀληθινός (alēthinos)
Adjective - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 228: True (lit: made of truth), real, genuine. From alethes; truthful.

Witness,
μάρτυς (martys)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 3144: A witness (judicially) or figuratively (genitive case); by analogy, a 'martyr'.

the
ἡ (hē)
Article - Nominative Feminine Singular
Strong's 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.

Originator
ἀρχὴ (archē)
Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular
Strong's 746: From archomai; a commencement, or chief.

of God’s
Θεοῦ (Theou)
Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular
Strong's 2316: A deity, especially the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very.

creation.
κτίσεως (ktiseōs)
Noun - Genitive Feminine Singular
Strong's 2937: From ktizo; original formation.

Seems like originator is what it should be.

[JehovahsWitness]

Even James Moffat says Jesus was born first before creation.

Or Jesus was "born" he has not always existed; so he cannot be equal Almighty God who has no beginning and was never "born" at all.