Questions about Jesus and JW’s

[MissKate13]

1. Jehovah’s Witnesses say Jesus was “a god.” This is how the NWT reads (John 1:1).

Do JW’s believe Jesus was a true or false god?

2. JW’s say Jesus is a created being.

When was Jesus (capital or lower case g) created?

I look forward to your responses to one or both questions.

MissKate13

[onewithhim]

1 Corinthians 15:28

When everything is subject to Christ, then the SON HIMSELF will also be subject to the ONE who subjected everything to HIM, so that God may be all in all.

This indicates that GOD the FATHER is subjected to CHRIST....

Quite the contrary it indicates the exact opposite. Let is look at what it says ...

The verse does indeed speak of someone being subject, but it says the THE SON will be subject to someone identified as "The ONE ..." ...



WHO in your opinion is Paul refering to as "THE ONE" in this verse ?



JW

But it also says {snip: did not ask what it also said} .

You have not answered the question. (Well move on to what it also says later, but first let's take the clause (part of the sentence) that uses the verb we are most interested in ---> "to subject")

So... Let me ask again my question for you is: WHO in your opinion is Paul refering to as "THE ONE" in this verse ?

The ONE is the FATHER of course. But it says that the ONE placed EVERYTHING in subjection to HIM (who is CHRIST of course). Everything doesn't leave any room for exceptions, now does it.

It also says that it is with the exception of the One who placed all things under the Son's feet (I
Corinth. 15:27), so yes, there is room for exceptions.

Then---"when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." (I Corinth. 15:28)

I think these verses explain themselves. There is room for exceptions, AND Christ will always be in subjection to God, the Father.

The eternal order has been, is now, and forever will be: FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT. Within that DIVINE order, there is PERFECT EQUALITY among the three persons of the TRINITY. Each person in the GODHEAD, however, has an eternal role to play. In very human terms, which I use reverently, God the Father has delegated tasks to HIS well-beloved SON, with whom HE is well pleased (see Matthew 3:17; 17:5; Mark 1:11; 9:7; Luke 3:22; 9.35; and 2 Peter 1:17).

The Father delegates. The Father approves. Therefore the Father is superior to the Son, and Jesus himself said this. "The Father is greater than I am," he said (John 14:28). And that didn't just mean while he was on Earth. In heaven it is the same for Jesus. "I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God," Paul says at I Corinthians 11:3, when Christ returned to heaven.

Who is God? Not a trinity but ONE Person. Jesus said to his Father: "YOU are the only true God." (John 17:3) Paul wrote to the Corinthians also: "There is actually to us one God, the FATHER, out of whom all things are." (I Corinthians 8:6)

The Bible NEVER says that GOD is ONE PERSON. The Bible even uses the term US. Let US create man in OUR image. As for John 17:3 This can be used in two ways: One which is that the FATHER is the only true GOD in a unique sense, and secondly that HE is partially identical to the only true God which is TRIUNE thus HE is the only true God, as is JESUS and the HOLY SPIRIT. When JESUS speaks of HIS FATHER being greater than HIMSELF, JESUS is always in HIS incarnate form after HE emptied HIMSELF to dwell among humanity...

Throughout the Bible it is evident that God is ONE PERSON. "Hear O Israel: YHWH our God is ONE YHWH." (Deut.6:4) God is YHWH and YHWH alone.

When God said "Let us make man in our image," He was undoubtedly speaking to the Son, but that doesn't mean that the Son is also God. How do you get the Trinity out of that? The Father is speaking to His Son who is not described as being also God. Father and Son are having a conversation, with the Father calling all the shots. YHWH spoke to His Son about making humans. It was YHWH's idea. Just as Jesus said later: "I came to do my Father's will and not my own." (John 4:34; John 5:30)

[2timothy316]

... ‘Jehovah is his name and this is proved by, ‘this is his name… [quoting Jer 23:6]

JEREMIAH 23:5, 6

“Look! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will raise up to David a righteous sprout. And a king will reign+ and show insight and uphold justice and righteousness in the land. 6 In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will reside in security. And this is the name by which he will be called: Jehovah Is Our Righteousness.”

Do Jesus theophoric names make him equal to Almighty God?
viewtopic.php?p=1112508#p1112508

When Paul said, “At the name of Jesus every knee will bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth” (Philippians 2:10, CSB), the emphasis was on every creature in the universe acknowledging JESUS as LORD over all creation. When he stated, “Every tongue will confess that JESUS CHRIST is LORD” (verse 11), he meant that every living thing, both in heaven and on earth, will honor CHRIST. Heavenly forces and demonic powers, people who reject CHRIST and HIS faithful in the church, all will bow before HIM (Isaiah 45:23–24). Every tongue will acknowledge JESUS for who HE is—the SOVEREIGN LORD of the universe.

The JWs do everything in their doctrine to throw JESUS CHRIST under the bus as an inferior being GOD created to manipulate, and ultimately this is offensive to GOD the FATHER.

The trinity doctrine puts Jesus in a position that even Jesus didn't consider himself equal to.

"Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, did not even consider the idea of trying to be equal to God." Philippians 2:5, 6

There is no throwing anyone under the bus when that person themselves don't consider themselves equal to God. So this reply is an attempt to accuse a people of something where there is no wrong doing according to scripture. According the man made trinity doctrine it's very damaging and I'm fine with that as I aim to please Jehovah and not man's created doctrines.

[LittleNipper]

1 Corinthians 15:28

When everything is subject to Christ, then the SON HIMSELF will also be subject to the ONE who subjected everything to HIM, so that God may be all in all.

This indicates that GOD the FATHER is subjected to CHRIST....

Quite the contrary it indicates the exact opposite. Let is look at what it says ...

The verse does indeed speak of someone being subject, but it says the THE SON will be subject to someone identified as "The ONE ..." ...



WHO in your opinion is Paul refering to as "THE ONE" in this verse ?



JW

But it also says {snip: did not ask what it also said} .

You have not answered the question. (Well move on to what it also says later, but first let's take the clause (part of the sentence) that uses the verb we are most interested in ---> "to subject")

So... Let me ask again my question for you is: WHO in your opinion is Paul refering to as "THE ONE" in this verse ?

The ONE is the FATHER of course. But it says that the ONE placed EVERYTHING in subjection to HIM (who is CHRIST of course). Everything doesn't leave any room for exceptions, now does it.

It also says that it is with the exception of the One who placed all things under the Son's feet (I
Corinth. 15:27), so yes, there is room for exceptions.

Then---"when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." (I Corinth. 15:28)

I think these verses explain themselves. There is room for exceptions, AND Christ will always be in subjection to God, the Father.

The eternal order has been, is now, and forever will be: FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT. Within that DIVINE order, there is PERFECT EQUALITY among the three persons of the TRINITY. Each person in the GODHEAD, however, has an eternal role to play. In very human terms, which I use reverently, God the Father has delegated tasks to HIS well-beloved SON, with whom HE is well pleased (see Matthew 3:17; 17:5; Mark 1:11; 9:7; Luke 3:22; 9.35; and 2 Peter 1:17).

The Father delegates. The Father approves. Therefore the Father is superior to the Son, and Jesus himself said this. "The Father is greater than I am," he said (John 14:28). And that didn't just mean while he was on Earth. In heaven it is the same for Jesus. "I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God," Paul says at I Corinthians 11:3, when Christ returned to heaven.

Who is God? Not a trinity but ONE Person. Jesus said to his Father: "YOU are the only true God." (John 17:3) Paul wrote to the Corinthians also: "There is actually to us one God, the FATHER, out of whom all things are." (I Corinthians 8:6)

The Bible NEVER says that GOD is ONE PERSON. The Bible even uses the term US. Let US create man in OUR image. As for John 17:3 This can be used in two ways: One which is that the FATHER is the only true GOD in a unique sense, and secondly that HE is partially identical to the only true God which is TRIUNE thus HE is the only true God, as is JESUS and the HOLY SPIRIT. When JESUS speaks of HIS FATHER being greater than HIMSELF, JESUS is always in HIS incarnate form after HE emptied HIMSELF to dwell among humanity...

Throughout the Bible it is evident that God is ONE PERSON. "Hear O Israel: YHWH our God is ONE YHWH." (Deut.6:4) God is YHWH and YHWH alone.

When God said "Let us make man in our image," He was undoubtedly speaking to the Son, but that doesn't mean that the Son is also God. How do you get the Trinity out of that? The Father is speaking to His Son who is not described as being also God. Father and Son are having a conversation, with the Father calling all the shots. YHWH spoke to His Son about making humans. It was YHWH's idea. Just as Jesus said later: "I came to do my Father's will and not my own." (John 4:34; John 5:30)

ONLY GOD has the capacity to create from nothing. The Bible doesn't call GOD one PERSON. And I do not believe for one moment that GOD would be the sort to create another being to be tortured and hung on a cross. HE would take it upon HIMSELF --- that is unless GOD is three beings working together and are entirely connected. But you don't seem to be able to accept this.

[JehovahsWitness]

When Paul said, “At the name of Jesus every knee will bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth” (Philippians 2:10, CSB), the emphasis was on every creature in the universe acknowledging JESUS as LORD over all creation.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES fully acknowledge the truth of that statement; Jehovah (YHWH) is not a creature (a created being), so he would naturally be excluded from sending the knee to his son.

...he meant that every living thing, both in heaven and on earth, will honor CHRIST. ....

Bending the knee is a sign of submission to a higher authotity. The Father Jehovah bends the knee to noone.

To honour on the other hand, In bible terms, means ... to glorify or give due weight and respect; It is not necessarily synonymous with worship . For example Christians are called to "honour men of all sorts" even secular leaders (see 1 Peter 2:17). Obviously then honour can be relative and does not mean the subject of such honour must be equal to Almighty God. The Father does indeed honor (or glorifies) his son because he is well pleased with him , just as a Father would praise his son for being obedient, but that does not make the Son equal to the Father.




JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[JehovahsWitness]

The JWs do everything in their doctrine to throw JESUS CHRIST under the bus as an inferior being GOD created to manipulate, and ultimately this is offensive to GOD the FATHER.

There is no need to use such derrogatory terms, such as a "throwing under a bus"* Jehovah's Witnesses merely stick to scripture acknowledging Jesus TRUE position and rank in relation to his Father.


* To "throw [someone] under the bus is an idiomatic phrase in English meaning to blame or abandon a person for selfish reasons.

1 Corinthians 15:28

When everything is subject to Christ, then the SON HIMSELF will also be subject to the ONE who subjected everything to HIM, so that God may be all in all.

The ONE is the FATHER of course. ...

1 CORINTHIANS 15:27

... when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him

.

Jesus is INFERIOR to his Father : see above.


Jesus is a CREATED being :

Douay-Rheims Bible
[Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature - COL 1:15

To learn more please go to to other posts related to ...

THE DIVINE NAME , JESUS and ...THE "TRINITY TEXTS" DEBUNKED

[LittleNipper]

The JWs do everything in their doctrine to throw JESUS CHRIST under the bus as an inferior being GOD created to manipulate, and ultimately this is offensive to GOD the FATHER.

There is no need to use such derrogatory terms, such as a "throwing under a bus"* Jehovah's Witnesses merely stick to scripture acknowledging Jesus TRUE position and rank in relation to his Father.


* To "throw [someone] under the bus is an idiomatic phrase in English meaning to blame or abandon a person for selfish reasons.

1 Corinthians 15:28

When everything is subject to Christ, then the SON HIMSELF will also be subject to the ONE who subjected everything to HIM, so that God may be all in all.

The ONE is the FATHER of course. ...

1 CORINTHIANS 15:27

... when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him

.

Jesus is INFERIOR to his Father : see above.


Jesus is a CREATED being :

Douay-Rheims Bible
[Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature - COL 1:15

To learn more please go to to other posts related to ...

THE DIVINE NAME , JESUS and ...THE "TRINITY TEXTS" DEBUNKED

I'm sorry; however, the only derogatory term I note is your application of "INFERIOR" to the SON of GOD. Put perhaps for you to better understand my Biblical point of view, let's look at how CHRIST JESUS referred to HIMSELF. In the book of John, CHRIST refers to HIMSELF as both the DOOR and the GOOD SHEPERD.

John 10:7-33

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I AM the door of the sheep.

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

9 I AM the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I AM come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

11 I AM the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

14 I AM the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and ONE SHEPHERD.

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.

20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?

21 Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?

22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.

24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 MY sheep hear MY voice, and I know them, and they follow ME:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

NOW, clearly JESUS called HIMSELF the GOOD SHEPHERD. And we may note two words here, "GOOD" and "SHEPHERD". Now, in Mark 10:18 CHRIST JESUS, while speaking with the wealthy young ruler says, “Why do you call ME GOOD?” Jesus answered. “NO ONE is good—except GOD ALONE." Unless one believes that The FATHER and CHRIST are ONE and both are indeed GOD along with the HOLY SPIRIT, this is very problematic, because JESUS clearly refers to HIMSELF as "GOOD". Now, to add to the growing problem for those of the JW faith, in the 23 Psalm we read the following:
23 The LORD (JEHOVAH) is my shepherd; I shall not want.

2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

So, now we have the SHEPHERD as being the FATHER, yet clearly JESUS says that not only is HE THE SHEPHERD (and not AShepherd), but JESUS also emphasizes the fact that HE is THE GOOD SHEPHERD. The point being that while CHRIST does indeed place HIMSELF in submission to HIS FATHER, HE in plan fact is revealing that HE is both GOD (being GOOD), and THE SHEPHERD which placed JESUS as ONE with both HIS FATHER and the HOLY SPIRIT. You cannot have it both ways. One must accept that CHRIST is GOD along with HIS FATHER and the HOLY SPIRIT, or one must accuse JESUS of blasphemy. THEY ARE GOD, and what the JW's attempt to do is confuse CHRIST's role, making JESUS CHRIST appear inferior to their own perception of the HEAVENLY FATHER at the expense of CHRIST and the HOLY SPIRIT.

[JehovahsWitness]

..., the only derogatory term I note is your application of "INFERIOR" to the SON of GOD.

If its good enough for Jesus, I don't see why its not good enough for you.

[LittleNipper]

..., the only derogatory term I note is your application of "INFERIOR" to the SON of GOD.

Or its good enough for Jesus, I don't see why its not good enough for you.

Inferior means --- of lesser quality. (JESUS is no less GOD and this is where JWs and Bible Christians begin parting ways).
Lesser means ---- not of a full capacity. (JESUS stated that HE emptied HIMSELF before taking on a human form and that would make sense).

But you do realize that the JW's show far less concern for SALVATION and soul winning of individuals, in order to promote their dogma that they print and distribute in order to make more JWs...

[JehovahsWitness]

..., the only derogatory term I note is your application of "INFERIOR" to the SON of GOD.

Or its good enough for Jesus, I don't see why its not good enough for you.

Inferior means --- of lesser quality ...

INFERIOR

1. lower in rank, status, or quality.

IS JESUS LOWER IN RANK AND STATUS TO YHWH ALMIGHTY GOD THE FATHER?

• " the SON HIMSELF will also be subject to the ONE who subjected everything to HIM ..." - 1 Corinthians 15:28

• "the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative " - John 5:19

• " I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me ..." - John 8:28

• " ...the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man, in turn, the head of the Christ is God

[LittleNipper]

..., the only derogatory term I note is your application of "INFERIOR" to the SON of GOD.

Or its good enough for Jesus, I don't see why its not good enough for you.

Inferior means --- of lesser quality ...

INFERIOR

1. lower in rank, status, or quality.

IS JESUS LOWER IN RANK AND STATUS TO YHWH ALMIGHTY GOD THE FATHER?

Whose do you pray to, but in whose name must you pray? It would seem that both are totally important to a conversation with GOD.