Atheism cannot be wrong

[Ray the atheist]

Preamble:

What can I possibly mean by that?
Notice that the title is about Atheism, and not Atheists..
I will be making that quite plain below

But first….

Definitions:

Atheism:

A lack of belief in gods.
Atheism is an expression of a disbelief.
When I say that I'm an atheist, I am expressing my disbelief, I'm not making a claim that the god isn't real.
It might be real, I might be mistaken, your god might be real, but as an atheist, I just don't believe it.

Theism:

A belief in at least one god.
Theism is an expression of belief. When I say that I'm a theist, I'm expressing my belief that at least one god exists. My god might not be real. I might be mistaken. But as a theist, I believe that my god is real.

_________________________

Atheism isn't a moral claim:

Atheism cannot be morally wrong, as in “evil,” and it cannot be morally right, as in “good.”

Atheism isn't a truth claim:

Atheism cannot be factually wrong, as in “false,” and it cannot be factually right, as in “true.”

It cannot be factually or morally wrong to express a belief, or a disbelief.

So, atheism cannot be logically wrong, and it cannot be morally wrong.
______________________________

I am making the STRONG distinction here between "atheism" and "atheist".

Atheists can and do have moral and factual judgments of claims.. For example, I am very willing to discuss my conclusions about Christianity and all theism in general.

Atheists and Atheism are not identical.
The first means people who do not believe in gods, and the second is the position of a non-belief in gods.

I will remind you of that at the end of my preamble.
The distinction is crucial.

______________________________

Here is an example of a short conversation to explain what that means:

Christian : Hi.
Atheist: I don't believe in your god.
Christian: Is atheism making the truth claim that "there are no gods"?
Atheist: No.
Christian: Is atheism making the claim that Atheism is correct?
Atheist: No.
Christian: Is atheism making a truth claim?
Atheist: No. Atheism itself makes no truth claim. “I don't believe in your god” describes my mental state, not a claim about whether your god exists.

As you can see, the only claim that an atheist needs to make is that "I don't believe in your god".

_________________________

As to morality, it's the same deal:

Christian: Hi.
Atheist: I don't follow your morality.
Christian: Are you claiming that my morality is evil?
Atheist: Atheism itself makes no moral claims. I have my own, personal opinions, though.
Christian: Does atheism claim the moral high ground?
Atheist: No.
Christian: When it comes to morality, what ARE you claiming?
Atheist: Atheism does not make a moral claim. I'm simply saying that I don't follow your morality, and I can explain why.
________________________________________

The atheist in these conversations isn't making a truth claim about the existence of your God, and it's not making a moral claim about your God, your religion, or yourself.

“I don't believe X” does not logically entail “I believe not-X.”

Example: “I don't believe extraterrestrial life exists” does not mean “I believe extraterrestrial life does not exist.”

Christians should be aware of what most modern atheists are saying because it would save us all a lot of time.

Pew provides useful evidence. In 2019, 97% of self-described atheists defined atheist as someone who does not believe in God, rather than explicitly claiming God does not exist.

This 97% can be noticed across most social media, including reddit atheists. Very few atheists insist that they know there is no God. .. It would be nice if reddit allowed for polls, we could make a quick test of what atheists actually claim.

So, if you can accept that we aren't making any truth claim or moral claim, then, atheism can't be factually or morally wrong.

Remember, that I'm not talking about my personal position on Christianity as the truth, nor am I talking about my personal position on Christianity as morally righteous.

Those would be my personal opinions, not the meaning of atheism.


The Argument:

P1: Non-belief in X does not entail a factual or moral claim about X.
P2: Atheism, understood as non-belief, is non-belief in gods.

C: Therefore, atheism cannot be factually or morally wrong.

[Vilferatus]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #2]

It cannot be factually or morally wrong to express a belief, or a disbelief.

Then neither atheism nor theism can be factually or morally wrong.

____________________________________

I get it... I struggled with that, too.


Atheism is only a claim about a person's mental state which is a rejection of theism.
Theism is the claim that at least one god is real, which is used to justify the belief in particular gods.

Do you see the difference between the two?

Yes the difference is one says something, and the other pretends to say something, and then claim they dont when proved wrong.

[1213]

...Atheism cannot be factually wrong, as in “false,” and it cannot be factually right, as in “true.”

So, if I ask you, does any god exist, yes or no, what would be your answer?

So, atheism cannot be logically wrong, and it cannot be morally wrong....

If it can't be wrong, can it be right?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #2]

It cannot be factually or morally wrong to express a belief, or a disbelief.

Then neither atheism nor theism can be factually or morally wrong.

____________________________________

I get it... I struggled with that, too.


Atheism is only a claim about a person's mental state which is a rejection of theism.
Theism is the claim that at least one god is real, which is used to justify the belief in particular gods.

Do you see the difference between the two?

In the context you yourself have specified there is no difference between them, because they are both beliefs. You're trying to differentiate by labeling atheism a belief while labeling theism as a claim. A non-fundamentalist theist will believe in the existence of a god or gods, while a hard atheist will claim that no gods exist. Whether a position is a belief or a claim depends less on the position itself and more on how much credence the individual gives it.

[bluegreenearth]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #13]

I suspect you may be missing the point of the OP. To be fair, the point is a bit nuanced and easy to miss.

The OP appears to be in response to theists who regularly attempt to shift the burden of proof onto the atheist. It usually goes something like this:

Christian: "Jesus was resurrected from the dead."
Atheist: "What is the evidence for that claim?"

Christian: "What evidence do you have that Jesus was not resurrected?"
Atheist: "I never claimed that Jesus was not resurrected."

Christian: "Are you an atheist?"
Atheist: "Yes."

Christian: "Then your atheism could be wrong, and you have an obligation to provide the supporting evidence for your position."
Atheist: "You want supporting evidence demonstrating my cognitive state of lacking belief in your claim?"

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to bluegreenearth in post #14]

The OP appears to be in response to theists who regularly attempt to shift the burden of proof onto the atheist.

I am making the STRONG distinction here between "atheism" and "atheist".

This being the case, an equally strong distinction must be made between "theism" and "theist".

[bluegreenearth]

[Replying to bluegreenearth in post #14]

The OP appears to be in response to theists who regularly attempt to shift the burden of proof onto the atheist.

I am making the STRONG distinction here between "atheism" and "atheist".

This being the case, an equally strong distinction must be made between "theism" and "theist".

If what you mean is the following, then fair enough:

Christian: "I believe Jesus is God."
Atheist: "I don't believe that you believe Jesus is a god. Please provide evidence of your cognitive state of believing a god exists."

So, if theism is defined as nothing more than the cognitive state of believing a god exists, then theists cannot be incorrect about experiencing their own cognitive state of having a theistic belief. However, I'm unaware of theists being routinely challenged to provide evidence of their cognitive state of having a theistic belief. Most atheists generally take theists at their word when they claim to have a theistic belief. Unfortunately, when atheists claim to lack a theistic belief, many theists do not take them at their word but accuse atheists of suppressing their theistic belief in unrighteousness.

It is important to note that if theism only describes the cognitive state of having a theistic belief and atheism only describes the cognitive state of lacking a theistic belief, the adoption of the theist label is to necessarily make the positive claim that a god exists while the adoption of the atheist label does not necessarily entail the positive claim that a god does not exist. Therefore, the theist could be wrong but the atheist who merely lacks a theistic belief and does not claim no gods exist cannot be wrong.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to bluegreenearth in post #16]

It is important to note that if theism only describes the cognitive state of having a theistic belief and atheism only describes the cognitive state of lacking a theistic belief, the adoption of the theist label is to necessarily make the positive claim that a god exists while the adoption of the atheist label does not necessarily entail the positive claim that a god does not exist.

Why would it be impossible for a theist to believe that a god exists without claiming that a god exists?

A positive claim is anything stated as fact, whether it pertains to existence or nonexistence.

[bluegreenearth]

[Replying to bluegreenearth in post #16]
Why would it be impossible for a theist to believe that a god exists without claiming that a god exists?

A positive claim is anything stated as fact, whether it pertains to existence or nonexistence.

No one is claiming that it would be impossible for a theist to believe a god exists without publicly making the claim. The question is about whether a theist could never be wrong in the same way that an atheist who does not claim no gods exist could never be wrong. A theist who believes a god exists but does not publicly claim the god exists can be wrong.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to bluegreenearth in post #18]

A theist who believes a god exists but does not publicly claim the god exists can be wrong.

An atheist who believes that no gods exist, whether claiming it publicly or not, can be wrong.

If atheism only describes the cognitive state of lacking a theistic belief, then there is one way to be an atheist and one way only. There are myriad ways to be a theist, and a theist might be wrong about the existence of a specific god and theism could still be right.

[bluegreenearth]

[Replying to bluegreenearth in post #18]
An atheist who believes that no gods exist, whether claiming it publicly or not, can be wrong.

Sure. No one claimed otherwise. What's your point?

[Replying to bluegreenearth in post #18]
If atheism only describes the cognitive state of lacking a theistic belief, then there is one way to be an atheist and one way only.

That doesn't logically follow. The cognitive state of lacking a theistic belief applies to the atheist who doesn't claim no gods exist and to the atheist who does claim no gods exist. Both types of atheists lack a positive belief in the existence of a god, even if one type also has a positive believe in the existence of no gods.

[Replying to bluegreenearth in post #18]
There are myriad ways to be a theist, and a theist might be wrong about the existence of a specific god and theism could still be right.

The question wasn't about whether a theist could be right. The question is about whether a theist could never be wrong. In the myriad of ways there are to be a theist, they all could still be wrong. If theism only describes the cognitive state of having a theistic belief, then theists cannot be wrong about their own experience of believing a god exists.