The OT says Jesus is not necessary at all

[Nickman]

The One Who Sins Will Die
Ezekiel 18 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:

“‘The parents eat sour grapes,
and the children’s teeth are set on edge’?
3 “As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.
5 “Suppose there is a righteous man
who does what is just and right.
6 He does not eat at the mountain shrines
or look to the idols of Israel.
He does not defile his neighbor’s wife
or have sexual relations with a woman during her period.
7 He does not oppress anyone,
but returns what he took in pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
but gives his food to the hungry
and provides clothing for the naked.
8 He does not lend to them at interest
or take a profit from them.
He withholds his hand from doing wrong
and judges fairly between two parties.
9 He follows my decrees
and faithfully keeps my laws.
That man is righteous;
he will surely live,
declares the Sovereign Lord.

10 “Suppose he has a violent son, who sheds blood or does any of these other things[a] 11 (though the father has done none of them):

“He eats at the mountain shrines.
He defiles his neighbor’s wife.
12 He oppresses the poor and needy.
He commits robbery.
He does not return what he took in pledge.
He looks to the idols.
He does detestable things.
13 He lends at interest and takes a profit.
Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he is to be put to death; his blood will be on his own head.14 “But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things:15 “He does not eat at the mountain shrines
or look to the idols of Israel.
He does not defile his neighbor’s wife.
16 He does not oppress anyone
or require a pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
but gives his food to the hungry
and provides clothing for the naked.
17 He withholds his hand from mistreating the poor
and takes no interest or profit from them.
He keeps my laws and follows my decrees.

He will not die for his father’s sin; he will surely live. 18 But his father will die for his own sin, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people.

19 “Yet you ask, ‘Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.
21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22 None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die. 27 But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life. 28 Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die. 29 Yet the Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are my ways unjust, people of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!


Deuteronomy 24:16 `Fathers are not put to death for sons, and sons are not put to death for fathers -- each for his own sin, they are put to death.


The simple way to be forgiven is to ask the OT deity for forgiveness and remove your transgressions yourself by not doing them anymore. This is pretty explicit in the above passages. Also original sin is not a concept that this god wants to follow anymore either. He does away with it by claiming that “As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die..

He is directly and explicitly going against the idea that Sons will pay for their fathers and vice versa. He now adopts the idea that the person who sins is the one who will pay and no one else. He also states that But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die.

Jesus and his "sacrifice" seem to go against this declaration made by the OT deity.

What do you say?

Is Jesus even necessary in light of these texts?

Can a person receive forgiveness from the OT deity without Jesus and just by changing ones ways?

[TheTruth101]

The One Who Sins Will Die
Ezekiel 18 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:

“‘The parents eat sour grapes,
and the children’s teeth are set on edge’?
3 “As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.
5 “Suppose there is a righteous man
who does what is just and right.
6 He does not eat at the mountain shrines
or look to the idols of Israel.
He does not defile his neighbor’s wife
or have sexual relations with a woman during her period.
7 He does not oppress anyone,
but returns what he took in pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
but gives his food to the hungry
and provides clothing for the naked.
8 He does not lend to them at interest
or take a profit from them.
He withholds his hand from doing wrong
and judges fairly between two parties.
9 He follows my decrees
and faithfully keeps my laws.
That man is righteous;
he will surely live,
declares the Sovereign Lord.

10 “Suppose he has a violent son, who sheds blood or does any of these other things[a] 11 (though the father has done none of them):

“He eats at the mountain shrines.
He defiles his neighbor’s wife.
12 He oppresses the poor and needy.
He commits robbery.
He does not return what he took in pledge.
He looks to the idols.
He does detestable things.
13 He lends at interest and takes a profit.
Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he is to be put to death; his blood will be on his own head.14 “But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things:15 “He does not eat at the mountain shrines
or look to the idols of Israel.
He does not defile his neighbor’s wife.
16 He does not oppress anyone
or require a pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
but gives his food to the hungry
and provides clothing for the naked.
17 He withholds his hand from mistreating the poor
and takes no interest or profit from them.
He keeps my laws and follows my decrees.

He will not die for his father’s sin; he will surely live. 18 But his father will die for his own sin, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people.

19 “Yet you ask, ‘Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.
21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22 None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die. 27 But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life. 28 Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die. 29 Yet the Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are my ways unjust, people of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!


Deuteronomy 24:16 `Fathers are not put to death for sons, and sons are not put to death for fathers -- each for his own sin, they are put to death.


The simple way to be forgiven is to ask the OT deity for forgiveness and remove your transgressions yourself by not doing them anymore. This is pretty explicit in the above passages. Also original sin is not a concept that this god wants to follow anymore either. He does away with it by claiming that “As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die..

He is directly and explicitly going against the idea that Sons will pay for their fathers and vice versa. He now adopts the idea that the person who sins is the one who will pay and no one else. He also states that But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die.

Jesus and his "sacrifice" seem to go against this declaration made by the OT deity.

What do you say?

Is Jesus even necessary in light of these texts?

Can a person receive forgiveness from the OT deity without Jesus and just by changing ones ways?

I'm sorry but the OT deity is the one telling Christ to say what he said. Therefore the OT deity itself is reforming the old laws.

[Nickman]

I'm sorry but the OT deity is the one telling Christ to say what he said. Therefore the OT deity itself is reforming the old laws.

That makes no sense. The OT deity already had a perfectly good plan that didn't require any more blood shed of innocent people and placed the sin upon the person who committed it and only that person. It allowed for a person to be forgiven by turning away from their sins and following god. No sacrifice was needed. Jesus seems to be a very unnecessary piece in this puzzle. The OT deity had a very good way of punishing those who were wrong while forgiving those who were justified. If you add Jesus, it makes things more difficult.

[Divine Insight]

Jesus and his "sacrifice" seem to go against this declaration made by the OT deity.

What do you say?

Is Jesus even necessary in light of these texts?

Can a person receive forgiveness from the OT deity without Jesus and just by changing ones ways?

I've always pointed out the fact that Christianity rapes the righteous of their righteousness. It pits the righteous against the righteous in the name of Jesus as the Christ Almighty.

This has been the extremely unfortunate fate of Christianity. Jesus himself has become a victim of this unrighteous religion due to the fact that they hold his name up in idol worship to do the very things that the Gospels themselves have Jesus teaching people not to do.

This aspect of Christianity that rapes the righteous of their righteousness in the name of Jesus as the Christ Almighty, is the very thing that makes the religion so utterly vile and disgusting.

Here's a teaching from the New Testament that is attributed to Jesus, yet there exist Christian evangelists who despise this teaching of Jesus. And hate him for having taught it.

Luke.6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

[TheTruth101]

I'm sorry but the OT deity is the one telling Christ to say what he said. Therefore the OT deity itself is reforming the old laws.

That makes no sense. The OT deity already had a perfectly good plan that didn't require any more blood shed of innocent people and placed the sin upon the person who committed it and only that person. It allowed for a person to be forgiven by turning away from their sins and following god. No sacrifice was needed. Jesus seems to be a very unnecessary piece in this puzzle. The OT deity had a very good way of punishing those who were wrong while forgiving those who were justified. If you add Jesus, it makes things more difficult.

I'm sorry but Jesus christ was necessary for eternal life. Without him, the old convenants would have never attained eternity. That's the whole point of Christ's death.

[Nickman]

I'm sorry but the OT deity is the one telling Christ to say what he said. Therefore the OT deity itself is reforming the old laws.

That makes no sense. The OT deity already had a perfectly good plan that didn't require any more blood shed of innocent people and placed the sin upon the person who committed it and only that person. It allowed for a person to be forgiven by turning away from their sins and following god. No sacrifice was needed. Jesus seems to be a very unnecessary piece in this puzzle. The OT deity had a very good way of punishing those who were wrong while forgiving those who were justified. If you add Jesus, it makes things more difficult.

I'm sorry but Jesus christ was necessary for eternal life. Without him, the old convenants would have never attained eternity. That's the whole point of Christ's death.

A blanket statement is not gonna get us anywhere. Care to show why he was necessary and why god would have changed this easier and more productive way to forgive?

Before he wanted people to turn from their ways and ask for forgiveness. Their was no original sin and people were not punished for others deeds (sins of the fathers on the sons). With Jesus their is original sin and sins of the fathers. It also requires one to believe something unbelievable for salvation which seems to be completely unnecessary.

[ttruscott]

You seem to be mixing up separate things as if they were contradictory - a car cannot exist because in one place the manual describes how it stops and in another place it describes how to make it go.

Death is a natural punishment of sin. All die. Christ's death is the redemption from sin and is applied to all elect whether they have experienced the natural effect of sin, ie death, or not.

One is natural part of life as a sinner.
The other is a legal (?) covenant-uary (?) part of the sinner's life in relationship with GOD and HIS Church.

Peace, Ted

[Divine Insight]

You seem to be mixing up separate things as if they were contradictory

Peace, Ted

In my opinion the New Testament rumors of Jesus are highly contradictory with the Old Testament rumors of the original Jewish Pharisees.

Even the New Testament rumors themselves have Jesus renouncing many of the immoral things of the Old Testament. So the people who appear to be mixed up to me are the people who made up the Christian superstitious rumors about Jesus.

Someone recently posted an independent historical reference to Jesus that was supposedly free from any connection to the Bible. However, in that historical reference it is stated that Jesus was crucified for inciting apostasy

Apostasy - The abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief.

I don't know how credible that historical account is, but if it has any credibility at all, then clearly some people who were removed from the New Testament gossips saw Jesus as rejecting the original Judaism rather than claiming to be an extension of it.

Here's the thread where this supposed historical record is being claimed:

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=22241

The only problem for Christianity is that this independent historical record has Jesus accused of apostasy, not of being a messiah.

[Cewakiyelo]

I see that the Old and the New are the same. Men have made the new covenant say that Jesus died for the sins of all men. But that is not exactly what Jesus was saying.

Matthew 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

"This is my blood of the covenant..." Blood in the days of Jesus and before was seen as the life force of a person or animal. It was seen as the cause of life. Blood = Life.

Jesus makes many comments describing the presence of God being with him, in him. He speaks of the Holy Spirit, the Father of Jesus, as being present with him and gives credit for all that he said and did to the Holy Spirit which dwelled with Jesus.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God

For Jesus, life was the Word of God. The Word of God is revealed by the Spirit of God. Jesus tells us that the Spirit of God is within him and that he does as the Spirit instructs and says as the Spirit says.
[strike]Blood[/strike] = Life Holy Spirit = Life

The New Covenant. Covenant, a pact between one and another. In this case we are speaking about a pact between Jesus and God. In the time of Jesus and before we see that covenants were sealed with sacrifice. That is that the blood / life of an animal was offered up to God. In the case of Jesus he is offering his life as that sacrificial offering. His blood to be shed and his death in order to make the covenant a binding pact between himself and God.

So what was the agreement between God and Jesus that was made in this New Covenant? It seems as though the words of Jesus at the table had twofold meaning. Matthew 26:28 "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." As mentioned Jesus was going to give his life as a sacrifice that would bind the contract between him and God. That is he will have his blood spilled. However, as mentioned, for Jesus, Life was the Holy Spirit that dwelled in him. This is the second part of what Jesus was eluding to in the verse. The Life of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, would be poured out for many. Upon many. Where once the Spirit of God was presented to a select few, now many would have the opportunity to receive the Spirit of God. Many would have a chance to learn from the Holy Spirit, the Word of God. That was the New Covenant. Jesus through his sacrifice made it possible for many to share in the same indwelling that he received and have a one on one relationship with the Holy Spirit. It is why he said such as the Holy Spirit shall teach all things. His sacrifice, binding a new covenant, insured the out pouring of the Holy Spirit upon many so that we could be taught directly by the Holy Spirit. Just as Jesus had been taught. It is the Holy Spirit that brings about the remission of sin, not the death of Jesus.

Our death is a required part of the covenant as well. It is not exactly that our blood and death are required for the covenant between God and Jesus to have effect only that in receiving the Holy Spirit, part of abiding in the Spirit will be the fact that we may be threatened with death and may be killed. We are to remain steadfast in service to God even if it means our death. It is a byproduct of the New Covenant. The covenant allows for receipt of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit then desires the steadfast devotion even to death.

Matthew 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

In essence when we receive the Holy Spirit into our lives, to indwell us, we are entering into a contract, a covenant, of our own between ourselves and God. And the binding part of that contract is that we shall never turn our backs on God, even if it means saving our own lives. We are to remain steadfast to death. The covenant between Jesus and God insured the out pouring of the Holy Spirit, and the covenant between us and God insures our salvation if we are abiding in the Spirit.

So just as it was in the Old Testament that we die of our own sins. So it remains in the New Testament. Jesus did not die to take away our sins. He died securing his salvation. In doing so his actions insured that the Holy Spirit would be sent to many. We work out our own salvation with the help of the Holy Spirit. Jesus did his work and we must do ours.

Where you see contradiction I see consistency.

[SailingCyclops]

I'm sorry but the OT deity is the one telling Christ to say what he said. Therefore the OT deity itself is reforming the old laws.

No need to apologize for the alleged deity. But weren't those laws "etched in stone"? Immutable? This alleged god isn't supposed to refute his own laws right? There must be another explanation! Surely you have this one wrong.