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Tired of the Nonsense
Subject: Re: Why do you believe in God?
[Replying to 1213]

1. Knew impressively what will happen to Jews long before the thing has begun. Bible says Jews will be scattered and later gathered back, as we may nowadays see happening.

I will scatter you among the nations, and I will draw out the sword after you: and your land will be a desolation, and your cities shall be a waste.
Leviticus 26:33

…then Yahweh your God will turn your captivity, and have compassion on you, and will return and gather you from all the peoples, where Yahweh your God has scattered you. If any of your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of the heavens, from there will Yahweh your God gather you, and from there will he bring you back:
Deuteronomy 30:1-4


You might also notice that this very thing already occurred in the OT. It happened first in Exodus. Beginning in about 597 BCE, and lasting until about 580 BCE or so, the Jewish population was deported from Jerusalem to Babylon. And then in 539 BCE the Jews were freed from their Babylonian captivity and allowed to return to Jerusalem. And so this "prophesy" was already fulfilled 2500 years ago. And even that "prophesy" relied on the prophesy already having been fulfilled before the "prophesy" in Deuteronomy was written.

Wikipedia
Deuteronomy
At the end of the Exile, when the Persians agreed that the Jews could return and rebuild the Temple, chapters 1–4 and29–30 were added and Deuteronomy was made the introductory book to this history, so that a story about a people about to enter the Promised Land became a story about a people about to return to the land. The legal sections of chapters 19–25 were expanded to meet new situations that had arisen, and chapters 31–34 were added as a new conclusion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Deuteronomy

2. Knowledge about the great flood and how it happened. Best explanation for why for example continents, oil fields, certain fossils, ancient coast lines, orogenic mountains exist as we can observe.

Coastlines rise and fall, changing over the course of centuries. Just as they are doing now.

3. But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat. 5:44-45


Nice sentiment, although more than just a little impractical in the real world, as it turns out. The strong will inevitably oppress the weak, unfortunately.

4. Is allegedly book written by Jews and still paint picture that tells also the bad things about them not only good as usually people do.

A campaign of extermination was waged against the Colorado Indians after they were falsely accused of stealing 175 cattle, after they had attempted to make peace, and after they had handed over most of their weapons. The kind of scenes described below were replicated over and over again through the centuries, in America as in Ireland.

When a junior officer, Lieutenant Cramer, protested to Colonel Chivington against his attack on an Indian band (that means families of men, women and children), Chivington said: “I have come to kill Indians, and believe that it is right and honourable to use any means under God’s heaven to kill Indians.”
According to Cramer, Chivington ordered his troops to: “Kill and scalp all, big and little; nits make lice.”

Chivington, a former Methodist minister, commanded a force of 700 soldiers against 500 Indians at Sand Creek, of whom about 100 were men of fighting age. The rest were women, children and old men.

Robert Bent, Chivington’s guide, reported:
“After the firing the warriors put the squaws and children together, and surrounded them to protect them. I saw five squaws under a bank for shelter. When the troops came up to them they ran out and showed their persons, to let the soldiers know they were squaws and begged for mercy, but the soldiers shot them all.There were some thirty or forty squaws collected in a hole for protection; they sent out a little girl about six years old with a white flag on a stick, she had not proceeded but a few steps when she was shot and killed. All the squaws in that hole were afterwards killed, and four or five bucks outside. The squaws offered no resistance. Every one I saw dead was scalped. I saw one squaw cut open with an unborn child, as I thought, lying by her side. Captain Soule afterwards told me that such was the fact .I saw quite a number of infants in arms killed with their mothers.”
https://11sixtynine.wordpress.com/2008/11/16/nits-make-lice-kill-them-all/


OF THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES FOR THE SECOND SESSION THIRTY-NINTH CONCRESS, 1866-'67

Page 57

First Lieutenant James D. Connor, New Mexico Volunteers:
“About day break on the morning of the 29th of November we came in sight of the camp of the friendly Indians aforementioned, and were ordered by Colonel Chivington to attack the same, which was accordingly done. The command of Colonel Chivington was composed of about one thousand men; the village of the Indians consisted of from one hundred to one hundred and thirty lodges, and, as far as I am able to judge, of from five hundred to six hundred souls, the majority of which were women and children; in going over the battleground the next day I did not see a body of man, woman or child but was scalped, and in many instances their bodies were mutilated in the most horrible manner – men, women, and children’s privates cut out, etc. I heard one man say that he had cut out a woman’s private parts and had them for exhibition on a stick – according to the best of my knowledge and belief these atrocities were committed with the knowledge of J.M. Chivington, and I do not know of his taking any measures to prevent them; I heard of one instance of a child of a few months being thrown in the feed-box of a wagon, and after being carried some distance left on the ground to perish; I also heard of numerous instances in which men had cut out the private parts of females and stretched them over the saddle-boxes, and wore them over their hats while riding in the ranks.“
https://books.google.com/books?id=oMxYAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Chivington

These were my countrymen that committed this atrocity less than 100 years before I was born. The only way I can express my outrage at their actions is to fully provide the details of what they did, and let these descriptions speak for themselves. Attempting to gloss any of it over would be a further outrage.

The only question that remains is, are the examples of the "bad" things that the Jews did presented out of revulsion, or out of pride?

5. And maybe the greatest thing is how by examples Bible tells how things go, if for example person does something wrong. In my opinion the great teachings are not always simple lines, but longer story that tells truth about humans. For me Bible has been great teacher and helped me to cope with many situations and helped me to understand many things also about myself. But obviously you could say that any book could do the same. I don’t believe that.

The OT indicates that after being brought out of Egypt by God through a series of miracles, the Israelites attempted to build an idol and to worship another god. The NT indicates that after several years of watching Jesus produce miracle after miracle, and despite the fact that he was supposed to have predicted his own resurrection after three days (according to Gospel Mark at least), his very apostles were amazed and at first unbelieving that he had returned from the dead. The Bible continuously describes the occurrence of unbelievable events and then of people reacting to these unbelievable events in unrealistic and inconsistent ways.

6. Bible seems to be the most hated book in the world. That also tells in my opinion that it has something truthful in it that some people don’t want to accept. If it would be just ordinary book, people would not care about it so much.

This is more of the Christian "oh, we are so oppressed," nonsense. The Bible is the most sold and most read book in history. I have read the Bible myself. I am not a Christian, and I do not consider the Bible anything other than a book produced by the minds and hands of humans. It's not my favorite book to be honest, but I don't hate it. As boring books go, the Book of Mormon is far worse.

7. Bible has promises that I feel has come true. For example Bible promises wisdom for everyone that asks it. Of course you could say that I have no wisdom, or that I would have it anyway. However, I believe things go just as the Bible tells.

But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach; and it will be given to him.
James 1:5


If you think that events mentioned in the Bible can be seen coming true now, imagine how certain of it Christians in another 2,000 are going to be. Or to put it another way, imagine how totally dismayed Christians 2,000 years ago would be to find that 2,000 later Christians would still be seeing evidence of Biblical claims coming true. And to discover that, after the passage of 2,000 years, Christians are still awaiting the return of Jesus!

8. And I think it has been correct about future and people also in this:

But know this, that in the last days, grievous times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, no lovers of good, traitors, headstrong, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God; holding a form of godliness, but having denied the power thereof. Turn away from these, also. But know this, that in the last days, grievous times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, no lovers of good, traitors, headstrong, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God; holding a form of godliness, but having denied the power thereof. Turn away from these, also. 2 Tim. 3:1-5

"Jesus is coming back. Pass it on. No, really, I'm serious! Jesus is coming back. Pass it on. You'll see!"

OnceConvinced
Subject:
Justin108 wrote:


You blatantly refuse to answer relevant criticisms to your posts. This is the third time you just ignore relevant points I made. Is asking for an honest debate too much. Whenever you're cornered, you just close your ears and shut your eyes.


:warning: Moderator Warning


This is nothing but a personal attack on JW. Please stick to debate rather than putting down other members.

Please review our Rules.

______________

Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

OnceConvinced
Subject: Re: Why do you believe in God?
logical thinking wrote:

1213 wrote:

logical thinking wrote:

Why do you believe in God?


For me Bible is the greatest reason to believe. And that is because it has great knowledge and wisdom that I think people would not have without God.

Can you give me an example f knowledge in the Bible that could have only come from God?


:greetings: Oooh ooh! yes teacher I can! How about Numbers 5:12-31?

God tells us that if we suspect our wife has committed adultery, she is to be tested by making her drink water mixed with dirt. If she gets sick, she is guilty.

I mean who else but a God would have come up with such wisdom? Such a fool proof plan to determine a woman's guilt?

OnceConvinced
Subject: Re: Why do you believe in God?
ttruscott wrote:

logical thinking wrote:

Why do you believe in God?


HE talked to me, somehow. It was words and sometimes conversion but the how was unclear though the meaning was clear. A knowledge that if GOD was talking to me it was exactly what HE wanted me to hear.

The difference between hearing HIM and my own thoughts in my head was that I learned new stuff I would never have thought up myself.


How can you be so sure you wouldn't have come up with it yourself? Are you psychic or do you just lack confidence in yourself?

The human mind remembers everything it's ever read or been told. However the problem is it can't often consciously recall it. Even you yourself claim we have repressed memories of a life before we were born. We just can't recall it. What if this stuff you heard from God was stuff you'd read or heard somewhere before and you'd just forgotten you'd read or heard it? What if in a moment of worship or meditation the subconscious recalled it?

ttruscott wrote:

The most important thing was that as I was "becoming" you might say, a Christian, I knew I was a fake Christian loving sin...


Interesting that you are one of these people. I have never loved sin. I still don't love sin. I don't think I'd like to rub shoulders with someone who loved sin. I'm guessing you and I would not have gotten along during that stage of your life.

MadeNew
Subject: Re: Why do you believe in God?
logical thinking wrote:

Why do you believe in God?

What specific argument or evidence is it, that persuades you?

Can you please outline the argument or piece of evidence that you believe is the STRONGEST reason to believe in God?

For example, is it the beauty and majesty of trees? Is it the Kalam Cosmological argument? Pascal's wager? Is it that you witnessed what you believe is a miracle? Is it the fact that you think the Bible contains prophecies? Is it because it feels good to believe in something greater than yourself?

Why do you believe in God?


I believe in Christianity because of the specific truth Christianity holds in my own personal life, and the world around me. The scriptures are so blatantly obviously true to me that I have no choice but to believe its truth. When i became a believer from my studies, The Bible answered questions about my life with such clarity, i never would had expected... It blew me away in ah... It was like the planets aligning, i never had such clarity. In the instant I started believing, and realized the truth of Christianity, my life changed... In that instant... Just like the scriptures tell us it will.. A seed a faith, having miraculous powers (Matthew 17:20), born again (John 3:1-15), knowing with understanding and clarity (Colossians 2:2-3), the death of the flesh through the crucifixion of Christ (Galatians 5:24), being lead by faith to repentance (Romans 2:4), and being set free (John 8:32).

My life, my convictions, my freedom and clarity.. Im convinced without a doubt. The scripture has been working miracles in my life since, just like it says it would!

Also, from my studies, I see that Jesus Christ is really the Son of God. He came and fulfilled the scripture, fulfilling the prophesies. He came and lived and died according to the scripture for the forgiveness of our sins, and He proved His claim as the Son of God by the resurrection as witnessed by many, who later died for that testimony.

I don't only thing this is the best explanation for Christianity's existence, it is the only reasonable explanation.

1213
Subject: Re: Why do you believe in God?
Tired of the Nonsense wrote:

You might also notice that this very thing already occurred in the OT. It happened first in Exodus. Beginning in about 597 BCE, and lasting until about 580 BCE or so, the Jewish population was deported from Jerusalem to Babylon.


The problem with that is, Babylon is just one nation and Bible speaks about many nations. So I think your explanation is wrong and shows that person doesn’t understand what he is reading.

Tired of the Nonsense wrote:
Nice sentiment, although more than just a little impractical in the real world, as it turns out. The strong will inevitably oppress the weak, unfortunately.


And because that is how people think, I think the idea in the scripture is not from men, but from God.

ttruscott
Subject: Re: Why do you believe in God?
OnceConvinced wrote:

Interesting that you are one of these people. I have never loved sin. I still don't love sin. I don't think I'd like to rub shoulders with someone who loved sin. I'm guessing you and I would not have gotten along during that stage of your life.


I got along with no one in that stage of my life...

JehovahsWitness
Subject: Re: Why do you believe in God?
[Replying to post 35 by logical thinking]



If the universe has had no beginning but has always existed, then that proves that something can exist; thus proving that something like a god with no beginning (no cause) is plausible.

If the universe had a beginning, it had to have a "cause".


JW

logical thinking
Subject: Re: Why do you believe in God?
1213 wrote:

[Replying to post 6 by RonE], [Replying to post 21 by marco], [Replying to post 33 by logical thinking]

RonE wrote:

I'm curious what "great knowledge and wisdom" you think we would not have but via the bible? Examples?


logical thinking wrote:

Can you give me an example f knowledge in the Bible that could have only come from God?


First I want to say, you don’t have to agree that Bible has great wisdom and knowledge. That is anyway subjective opinion. I just answered to the opening question why I believe. If you have read the Bible and don’t see the wisdom and knowledge, there is not much that I can do to change your opinion.

But still, here are few things that I meant with great wisdom and knowledge and reasons why I think it is great book.

1. Knew impressively what will happen to Jews long before the thing has begun. Bible says Jews will be scattered and later gathered back, as we may nowadays see happening.
Can you give me an example of ONE group of people that have NOT been scattered, reunited, and that over the ages hasn't seen a lot of strife?

The Italians, scattered throughout the world and united in italy.

The Irish, scattered throughout the world and united in ireland

The Chinese, scattered throughout the world and united in china.

If something happens to EVERY group of people, you don't get to call it prophecy when you predict it will happen to your group as well.


"I hereby predict that in 13 years my newborn son will go through puberty! I am a prophet".

EVERYBODY goes through puberty 13 years after they're born!

It's not a prophecy if you predict that which EVERYBODY KNOWS, EVERYBODY GOES THROUGH. Come on, man!

Quote:
2. Knowledge about the great flood and how it happened. Best explanation for why for example continents, oil fields, certain fossils, ancient coast lines, orogenic mountains exist as we can observe.

http://www.kolumbus.fi/r.berg/index_eng.html
Yeah buddy, the great flood didn't happen. That's a fairy tale inside your book.

The Lord of the Rings has the "best knowledge" of the location of Mount Doom. Why? BECAUSE MOUNT DOOM IS A FICTIONAL ELEMENT INSIDE THE BOOK THE LORD OF THE RINGS!!!!

Similarly, the Bible has the most stuff about the Great Flood because... the fairy tale of the great flood is, you guessed it, inside the Bible!!!! Duh!

Quote:
3. But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat. 5:44-45
This is very very stupid. You should NOT love your enemies! That is very immoral. If you are a righteous person, then your enemies must be evil people. It's wrong to love them. My enemies are pedophiles, murderers, rapists. I do NOT love them. I don't necessarily HATE them. I just want them gone. But I don
't love them. That would be crazy!

And in any case, this passage, if taken more broadly, simply advocates compassion and being a good human being. Are you saying that there is no other book in the world that advocates that? Are you saying that it's impossible for human beings to figure out that they should be compassionate, without God writing it down in a book?

Quote:
4. Is allegedly book written by Jews and still paint picture that tells also the bad things about them not only good as usually people do.
Are you saying that introspection and honesty are impossible in books written by humans? Are you saying that only the supernatural creator of the universe is able to write a book that honestly talks about the faults of a group of people? Is this a joke?

You're trying to convince me that the Bible is a SUPERNATURAL BOOK WRITTEN BY THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE.

And your argument is "Well, it's not 100% LIES, every once in a while it says a couple of things that are honest even though they point out the faults of the Jews".

Really???

Quote:
5. And maybe the greatest thing is how by examples Bible tells how things go, if for example person does something wrong. In my opinion the great teachings are not always simple lines, but longer story that tells truth about humans. For me Bible has been great teacher and helped me to cope with many situations and helped me to understand many things also about myself. But obviously you could say that any book could do the same. I don’t believe that.
So you believe that donkeys ACTUALLY talk, because the stories in the book about the talking donkey are inspiring to you? Have you never conceived of the notion of INSPIRATIONAL FICTION?

Quote:
6. Bible seems to be the most hated book in the world. That also tells in my opinion that it has something truthful in it that some people don’t want to accept. If it would be just ordinary book, people would not care about it so much.
Wait, wait, wait. People like the bible? Evidence that donkeys can talk. People don't like the Bible? Evidence that donkeys can talk?

How is the fact that people have differing opinions on a book evidence that the fairy tales in it are real?

People have differing opinions on the movie The Princess Bride. Does it therefore mean that the story is real?

Quote:
7. Bible has promises that I feel has come true. For example Bible promises wisdom for everyone that asks it. Of course you could say that I have no wisdom, or that I would have it anyway. However, I believe things go just as the Bible tells.
Wisdom to those who ask for it... WHAT? Wisdom is not a commodity! Wisdom is the ability to think. You are not GIVEN wisdom. You train your brain like you train any muscle, and EARN wisdom.

The fact that you weren't able to realize this, is evidence that what I'm saying is true.

Quote:
8. And I think it has been correct about future and people also in this:

But know this, that in the last days, grievous times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, no lovers of good, traitors, headstrong, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God; holding a form of godliness, but having denied the power thereof. Turn away from these, also.
2 Tim. 3:1-5

THERE ARE ALWAYS BAD THINGS HAPPENING. Have you watched the news..... ever?

Was there ever a time that bad people weren't doing bad things?

If I said "I predict that somewhere in the world it will rain this year, and that the rain will be constituted of drops of water, which is wet", would you say I was able to predict the future, and that I was correct about the way things work?

COME ON!

Danmark
Subject:
Elijah John wrote:

Creation.

Isn't this an argument from ignorance?

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