How do we know Genesis was intended to be a metaphor?

[Justin108]

Other than our current understanding of science clearly contradicting Genesis, what reason is there to believe Genesis was written as a metaphorical account of creation?

[JehovahsWitness]

My question was, how are you justifying a figurative reading of genesis

We don't have a "figurative reading of Genesis" we have a figurative reading of specific verses or expressions in Genesis.

[alexxcJRO]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

“That's quite a sweeping statement. What exactly are you referring to. I have thousands of posts on this forum and not a small number in this thread, perhaps it would be an idea to quote the offending statement, explain how it's nonsense and offer proof that is is such. “

You keep peddling nonsense aka keep saying: “"the bible is indeed truthful and not out of line with proven science." Which is wrong.

Here is why:

“11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.� And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.�
(Genesis 1:11-13)

“20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.� 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.� 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.� And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.�
(Genesis 1:20-25)

•535 Ma Major diversification of living things in the oceans: chordates, arthropods (e.g. trilobites, crustaceans), echinoderms, molluscs, brachiopods, foraminifers and radiolarians, etc.
•530 Ma The first known footprints on land date to 530 Ma, indicating that early animal explorations may have predated the development of terrestrial plants.[50]
•525 Ma Earliest graptolites
•510 Ma First cephalopods (nautiloids) and chitons
•505 Ma Fossilization of the Burgess Shale
•485 Ma First vertebrates with true bones (jawless fishes)
•450 Ma First complete conodonts and echinoids appear
•440 Ma First agnathan fishes: Heterostraci, Galeaspida, and Pituriaspida
•434 Ma The first primitive plants move onto land,[51] having evolved from green algae living along the edges of lakes.[52] They are accompanied by fungi[citation needed], which may have aided the colonization of land through symbiosis.
•420 Ma Earliest ray-finned fishes, trigonotarbid arachnids, and land scorpions[53]

•Seed ferns were the first seed plants, protecting their reproductive parts in structures called cupules.
•Seed ferns gave rise to the gymnosperms during the Paleozoic Era, about 390 million years ago.
•Gymnosperms include the gingkoes and conifers and inhabit many ecosystems, such as the taiga and the alpine forests, because they are well adapted for cold weather.
•True seed plants became more numerous and diverse during the Carboniferous period around 319 million years ago; an explosion that appears to be due to a whole genome duplication event

• Angiosperms evolved during the late Cretaceous Period, about 125-100 million years ago.
• Angiosperms have developed flowers and fruit as ways to attract pollinators and protect their seeds, respectively.
• In botany, a fruit is the seed-bearing structure in flowering plants (also known as angiosperms) formed from the ovary after flowering.
• The ancestors of flowering plants diverged from gymnosperms in the Triassic Period, during the range 245 to 202 million years ago (mya), and the first flowering plants are known from 160 mya.
https://www.boundless.com/biology/textb ... 620-11841/
https://www.boundless.com/biology/textb ... 619-11840/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_ ... ry_of_life
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowering_plant


In the Genesis we have plants with flowers and fruits been created before animals.

Science shows animals were in the seas and land long before there were any flower and fruit bearing plants.

Therefore Genesis contradicts science.

[JehovahsWitness]

Day a "metaphor"?

Actually I've been thinking about my post above. Maybe I was a bit hasty to catagorize day as a "metaphor". Strictly speaking isn't a metaphor applying a term to something to which is it not literally applicable but since one definition of day is a period of time, can applying the word day to a period of time be viewed as a metaphor?



Does not applying a primary definition (a literal 24 hours day ie a single rotation of the earth) mean we fall into metaphor? Input welcome on this point.

JW

[Willum]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Notice day and days.
Naught the seven days of the sailing ships.
Once the Sun is about, a day is well defined.

So...
That book you're citing, I don't think it says what you think it says.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 242 by alexxcJRO]

Isn't that a re-post?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 352#833352
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 415#833415

What exactly in the scriptures you posted do you believe is proving your point?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 244 by Willum]

Are you answering the question I posed in the post above? If so, what is your answer? If not, what are you referring to.

Thanks,

JW

[alexxcJRO]

[Replying to post 245 by JehovahsWitness]

“11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.� And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.�
(Genesis 1:11-13)

“20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.� 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.� 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.� And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.�
(Genesis 1:20-25)

•535 Ma Major diversification of living things in the oceans: chordates, arthropods (e.g. trilobites, crustaceans), echinoderms, molluscs, brachiopods, foraminifers and radiolarians, etc.
•530 Ma The first known footprints on land date to 530 Ma, indicating that early animal explorations may have predated the development of terrestrial plants.[50]
•525 Ma Earliest graptolites
•510 Ma First cephalopods (nautiloids) and chitons
•505 Ma Fossilization of the Burgess Shale
•485 Ma First vertebrates with true bones (jawless fishes)
•450 Ma First complete conodonts and echinoids appear
•440 Ma First agnathan fishes: Heterostraci, Galeaspida, and Pituriaspida
•434 Ma The first primitive plants move onto land,[51] having evolved from green algae living along the edges of lakes.[52] They are accompanied by fungi[citation needed], which may have aided the colonization of land through symbiosis.
•420 Ma Earliest ray-finned fishes, trigonotarbid arachnids, and land scorpions[53]

•Seed ferns were the first seed plants, protecting their reproductive parts in structures called cupules.
•Seed ferns gave rise to the gymnosperms during the Paleozoic Era, about 390 million years ago.
•Gymnosperms include the gingkoes and conifers and inhabit many ecosystems, such as the taiga and the alpine forests, because they are well adapted for cold weather.
•True seed plants became more numerous and diverse during the Carboniferous period around 319 million years ago; an explosion that appears to be due to a whole genome duplication event

• Angiosperms evolved during the late Cretaceous Period, about 125-100 million years ago.
• Angiosperms have developed flowers and fruit as ways to attract pollinators and protect their seeds, respectively.
• In botany, a fruit is the seed-bearing structure in flowering plants (also known as angiosperms) formed from the ovary after flowering.
• The ancestors of flowering plants diverged from gymnosperms in the Triassic Period, during the range 245 to 202 million years ago (mya), and the first flowering plants are known from 160 mya.
https://www.boundless.com/biology/textb ... /seed-plan...
https://www.boundless.com/biology/textb ... /seed-plan...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_ ... ry_of_life
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowering_plant




What is so difficult to understand?:-s

Hereeeeee:

In the Genesis we have plants with flowers and fruits been created before animals.

Science shows animals were in the seas and land long before there were any flower and fruit bearing plants.

Therefore Genesis contradicts science.

[DanieltheDragon]

... trying to figure out why you think the stars were created before day 4.

Because the first verse of the bible says God created "the heavens and the earth" and the heavens (refering to the physical universe) includes stars, planets, etc. This was obviously prior to day four.

JW

That is an inference the heavens can also simply refer to the sky. It is not explicit in stating that this includes the universe, stars planets, etc.

Possibly. But since the "sky" is mentioned as coming about on day two we can safely conclude that that is not what is being referred to.

But since the "stars" are mentioned as coming about on day four we can safely conclude that is not what is being referred to.

[DanieltheDragon]

I have a few questions regarding the metaphorical use of "day" in Genesis
- Why use "day" do describe these time periods? Why use this word exactly?
- Is each "day" in Genesis as long as every other "day"? I.e is "day 1" as long as "day 3"?

Why use metaphor at all? Why not? Metaphor is a very useful linguistic tool to convey certain ideas efficiently and effectively. They are also usually extremely memorable (ie easy to remember) as they present sometimes complex ideas in a simple and vivid way by relating them to something we are familiar with. So why use metaphor at all? Because it's an interesting, useful and memorable way of teaching.

Why use this word [day] exactly?

Because "day" in Hebrew, as in English is a very flexible word that still manages to convey the idea of a period of time. "Period when God was doing things" doesn't have the same ring to it. A day starts, progresses (usually with various activities performed in it) and eventually ends. It's a very fitting word to describe God's creative timeframe. "There was evening, and morning ... a first day"; it's also (in my opinion) very beautiful*.

Is each "day" in Genesis as long as every other "day"? I.e is "day 1" as long as "day 3"?

We can't say for certain but given the imagery I don't think it would be unreasonable to presume so.





* The word "day" is often used in songs and poetry.

5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

. 8 And God called the expanse Heaven.[c] And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.


13 And there was evening and there was morning, the third day.

19 And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day.

You know this repeats for all of the days strangely enough. Yes the word day is a flexible one that's why we look to the context and here Gen 1 clearly defines it repeatedly.

[JehovahsWitness]

In the Genesis we have plants with flowers and fruits been created before animals. Science shows animals were in the seas and land long before there were any flower and fruit bearing plants.

My understanding of the scientific consensus (correct me if I am wrong) is that plant life and vegetation did indeed appear before animals, just as the bible says. The question then concerns what does the bible say about the appearance of fruit bearing trees that supposedly appeared some time after the first animals?

Firstly I doubt if there is conclusive evidence that this is the case and even if there were, whether this contradicted the bible would depend on how you read (understand) the text

QUESTION: Does the bible say that fruit trees appeared before any animal life?

In Genesis 1:11 we read of God's command that the earth produce all kind of vegetable and plant life. Then in verse 12 the bible states "And the earth began to put forth" these various types of plant life. This doesn't necessarily mean that all the types of plant life began at the same time, only that the earth began to be productive, a productivity that would eventually lead to the wide variety of plant life we see today.

To illustrate: If a wife sent her husband to the supermarket saying "I want you to get milk, bread, a chicken and a dozen eggs" and then there was the statement "So the husband began to buy those things... " are we to presume that he bought them all in the same section at the same time? Or rather (more reasonably) that he started the process that would eventually lead to the obtaining of all the items.

But does not the conclusion of the creative day mean the "list" was finished and all the elements appeared?

No, that is an assumption and not one based on anything explicitly stated in the text. Indeed it seems reasonable that at least some of the processes started continued on into the next and subsequent days. For example in "day" 5 God created and blessed the sea creatures and commanded that they {quote} be fruitful and become many and fill the waters"{end quote} It is most unreasonable to presume that at the moment he created them, this process was already complete. And since there is nothing said to the contrary there is no reason to presume that the process didn't continue over the subsequent days in a progressive nature.

CONCLUSION: The bible only specifically mentions chronologically when various processes began, it says nothing about when they would end. It does not say that fruit trees appeared before animal life.

Good question though.

JW





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