A civil debate forum for people of all persuasions (Atheists, Agnostics, Deists, Christians, and adherents of any religion)

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 ... 19, 20, 21  Next

Reply to topic
marco
First Post
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:08 pm  Is there an answer to Islamic terrorism? Reply with quote

And so beautiful Barcelona joins the list of cities terrorists have attacked. I don't doubt that there are those who will say America and the West are responsible. One of the terrorists apparently wrote of his desire to kill infidels.

I was in Madrid a few weeks ago and had intended to revisit Barcelona and its busy street, Las Ramblas, where the atrocities occurred. So terror is just a breath away, at least here in Europe.

Is it possible for those who want to kill to be educated if not by impious Westerners by Imams? Are those who want to kill "infidels" already known in their home circles? Obviously the scale of this lunacy will grow and we will hear on our screens the fatuous: "They will not win." But they do.

What can we do to ensure "they will not win"? Should the world convert to Islam, at least nominally?
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 81: Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:20 pm
Reply
Re: Is there an answer to Islamic terrorism?

Like this post
marco wrote:

paarsurrey1 wrote:


All the verses given above are out of the context which some people may term as quote-mining or contextomy, though one has no such intention, I am sure.


When people are told to kill, then protesting the quote is out of context is futile. It is nice that you WANT to see good in the Quran, even when it expresses wickedness. This reflects the goodness in you. I believe much of the Quran is wicked. That is why terrorists find excuses today, and utter that Allah is great. Allah, after all, told them to kill infidels.

Take verse 5:33 which I quoted. People are told that Allah's enemies should be put to death and specifically "have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides." Can you possibly justify a true, caring god saying this? What possible context could redeem this wicked advice?
He continues:
As for unbelievers theirs shall be a woeful punishment.
Theirs will be a lasting punishment (in fire).
For those who steal cut off their hands....

THIS is the context. And this is not peace or forgiveness.
Allah deliberately deceives: 5:41 - You cannot help a man if Allah seeks to mislead him. They shall have shame and a grievous punishment in the next world.

Such is the context - punish, kill, torture. burn. Religion of Peace????

And of course we could return to the wife-beating advice. If your wives continue to disobey, you must BEAT them. Religion of peace??????


The heading of each surah suggests - sarcastically - that Allah is merciful. Not to those who don't believe!

I think you are rather starry-eyed about the Quran. My copy is a translation by Dawood. I have never found anything pleasant in it; it is worse than the Old Testament from which it has been erroneously constructed. My opinion! Islamic terrorists obviously think it offers good advice.


Whatever the translation, we will get to the Truth and rectify if there is a wrong translation as the original text is available under easy access. Translations are done by humans who could err sometimes or many times or are understood incorrectly sometimes or many times.
Please select one verse and quote it with the verses in the context as requested.
There is, however, no compulsion, whatsoever. If one has already decided to take sides, even then it is OK with me.
Peace be with one.

Anybody else, please

Regards

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 82: Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:34 am
Reply

Like this post (1): JP Cusick
I did not read all of this. But, I read enough to know, murder and killing are 2 entirely separate things.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 83: Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:02 am
Reply
Re: Is there an answer to Islamic terrorism?

Like this post
JP Cusick wrote:

When we know that the USA has vast control over the internet, and we know that the USA is bombing and murdering everyone they view as the enemy, then there can not be any website or magazine from ISIS or ISIL without having the USA in support thereof.

Do you know what the dark web is? While ISIS / ISIL does not have a website, they are still capable of making a pdf file and uploading it.

Quote:
The Al Jazeera does not defy nor contradict any of the demands by the US military.

All we get in the West and in the USA is the American propaganda machine.

This is not complicated.

What is and isn't complicated is not a indicator for what is and isn't true. All you have is a conspiracy theory. Is China in on this? Or Russia? Or North Korea?

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 84: Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:18 am
Reply
Re: Is there an answer to Islamic terrorism?

Like this post
paarsurrey1 wrote:

marco wrote:

Take verse 5:33 which I quoted...


Please select one verse and quote it with the verses in the context as requested.

He already picked one verse, why does it matter who provide the context? If you think the context will resolve it, why not provide it yourself?


"If you should raise your hand against me to kill me - I shall not raise my hand against you to kill you. Indeed, I fear Allah, Lord of the worlds.
Indeed I want you to obtain [thereby] my sin and your sin so you will be among the companions of the Fire. And that is the recompense of wrongdoers.
And his soul permitted to him the murder of his brother, so he killed him and became among the losers.
Then Allah sent a crow searching in the ground to show him how to hide the disgrace of his brother. He said, "O woe to me! Have I failed to be like this crow and hide the body of my brother?" And he became of the regretful.
Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.
Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,
Except for those who return [repenting] before you apprehend them. And know that Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
O you who have believed, fear Allah and seek the means [of nearness] to Him and strive in His cause that you may succeed.
Indeed, those who disbelieve - if they should have all that is in the earth and the like of it with it by which to ransom themselves from the punishment of the Day of Resurrection, it will not be accepted from them, and for them is a painful punishment.
They will wish to get out of the Fire, but never are they to emerge therefrom, and for them is an enduring punishment.
[As for] the thief, the male and the female, amputate their hands in recompense for what they committed as a deterrent [punishment] from Allah . And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise."


You said you believe the objection will get resolved. How?

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 85: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:13 am
Reply

Like this post
brianbbs67 wrote:

I did not read all of this. But, I read enough to know, murder and killing are 2 entirely separate things.


Then one's comments are not meaningful and relevant about Quran/Islam/Muhammad, please.

Regards

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 86: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:05 pm
Reply
Re: Is there an answer to Islamic terrorism?

Like this post
brianbbs67 wrote:

... murder and killing are 2 entirely separate things.

I see this as an important distinction, and it needs to be understood.

For centuries the Bible has been misrepresented in the 10 commandments that it says:

Thou shalt not kill.

But the correct word is murder and not killing.

As in = Thou shalt not murder.

This is a big distinction.

The Ten Commandments forbids the unjustified taking of a human life.

To kill can be done in a justified war, in some cases of self defense, the execution of convicted criminals, because death and dying is a normal part of life, but murder is not.


------------------------------------------------------



Bust Nak wrote:

JP Cusick wrote:

When we know that the USA has vast control over the internet, and we know that the USA is bombing and murdering everyone they view as the enemy, then there can not be any website or magazine from ISIS or ISIL without having the USA in support thereof.

Do you know what the dark web is? While ISIS / ISIL does not have a website, they are still capable of making a pdf file and uploading it.

There is no dark web or secret internet access in the entire middle-east that can get past the USA military, nor past the surveillance by the Jewish State of Israel in that area, as that just can not happen unless the USA is orchestrating it to happen.

This is not me being paranoid or conspiracy theory - because the USA has spent anywhere from $2-6 trillion (with a T ) in our wars against Islam for the past 15 years, so the American military is quite capable of controlling everything going in or out over the internet in all of that area.

Bust Nak wrote:

JP Cusick wrote:

The Al Jazeera does not defy nor contradict any of the demands by the US military.

All we get in the West and in the USA is the American propaganda machine.

This is not complicated.

What is and isn't complicated is not a indicator for what is and isn't true. All you have is a conspiracy theory. Is China in on this? Or Russia? Or North Korea?

Yes Russia is in on it, and Russians are white imperialist too, and Russia is very anti-Islam and anti terrorism, and China surely knows about it all, and it is debatable as to what North Korea and Iran might know or not know.

The ones who are truly misinformed is the general population of the USA, and probably the population of Europe too is just as brainwashed by the propaganda machine.

To view the USA as not having any propaganda going on - that would be true insanity.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile Visit poster's website 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 87: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:18 pm
Reply
Re: Is there an answer to Islamic terrorism?

Like this post
Bust Nak wrote:

paarsurrey1 wrote:

marco wrote:

Take verse 5:33 which I quoted...


Please select one verse and quote it with the verses in the context as requested.

He already picked one verse, why does it matter who provide the context? If you think the context will resolve it, why not provide it yourself?


"If you should raise your hand against me to kill me - I shall not raise my hand against you to kill you. Indeed, I fear Allah, Lord of the worlds.
Indeed I want you to obtain [thereby] my sin and your sin so you will be among the companions of the Fire. And that is the recompense of wrongdoers.
And his soul permitted to him the murder of his brother, so he killed him and became among the losers.
Then Allah sent a crow searching in the ground to show him how to hide the disgrace of his brother. He said, "O woe to me! Have I failed to be like this crow and hide the body of my brother?" And he became of the regretful.
Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.
Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,
Except for those who return [repenting] before you apprehend them. And know that Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
O you who have believed, fear Allah and seek the means [of nearness] to Him and strive in His cause that you may succeed.
Indeed, those who disbelieve - if they should have all that is in the earth and the like of it with it by which to ransom themselves from the punishment of the Day of Resurrection, it will not be accepted from them, and for them is a painful punishment.
They will wish to get out of the Fire, but never are they to emerge therefrom, and for them is an enduring punishment.
[As for] the thief, the male and the female, amputate their hands in recompense for what they committed as a deterrent [punishment] from Allah . And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise."


You said you believe the objection will get resolved. How?

Thanks for selecting a verse and quoting from Quran its context verses. I give them again with the verse numbers:

[5:28] And relate to them truly the story of the two sons of Adam, when they each offered an offering, and it was accepted from one of them and was not accepted from the other. The latter said, ‘I will surely kill thee.’ The former replied, ‘Allah accepts only from the righteous.
[5:29] ‘If thou stretch out thy hand against me to kill me, I am not going to stretch out my hand against thee to kill thee. I do fear Allah, the Lord of the universe.
[5:30] ‘I wish that thou shouldst bear my sin as well as thy sin, and thus be among the inmates of the Fire, and that is the reward of those who do wrong.’
[5:31] But his mind induced him to kill his brother, so he killed him and became one of the losers.
[5:32] Then Allah sent a raven which scratched in the ground, that He might show him how to hide the corpse of his brother. He said, ‘Woe is me! Am I not able to be even like this raven so that I may hide the corpse of my brother?’ And then he became regretful.
[5:33] On account of this, We prescribed for the children of Israel that whosoever killed a person — unless it be for killing a person or for creating disorder in the land — it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and whoso gave life to one, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind. And Our Messengers came to them with clear Signs, yet even after that, many of them commit excesses in the land.
[5:34] The reward of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive to create disorder in the land is only this that they be slain or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on alternate sides, or they be expelled from the land. That shall be a disgrace for them in this world, and in the Hereafter they shall have a great punishment;
[5:35] Except those who repent before you have them in your power. So know that Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.
[5:36] O ye who believe! fear Allah and seek the way of approach unto Him and strive in His way that you may prosper.
[5:37] Surely, if those who disbelieve had all that is in the earth and as much over again, to ransom themselves therewith from the punishment of the Day of Resurrection, it would not be accepted from them; and they shall have a painful punishment.
[5:38] They will wish to come out of the Fire, but they will not be able to come out of it, and they shall have a lasting punishment.
https://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=5&verse=37
So the selected verse for discussion/debate is [5:34].

One may note here that the terrorists are clearly not following the teachings mentioned in these verses and whatever they are doing has no sanction from Quran/Islam/Muhammad, please.

Regards

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 88: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:52 pm
Reply
Re: Is there an answer to Islamic terrorism?

Like this post
paarsurrey1 wrote:

One may note here that the terrorists are clearly not following the teachings mentioned in these verses and whatever they are doing has no sanction from Quran/Islam/Muhammad, please.

Be more specific please. What part(s) exactly out of those verses, do you think terrorists are not following?

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 89: Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:01 pm
Reply
Re: Is there an answer to Islamic terrorism?

Like this post
JP Cusick wrote:

There is no dark web or secret internet access in the entire middle-east that can get past the USA military, nor past the surveillance by the Jewish State of Israel in that area, as that just can not happen unless the USA is orchestrating it to happen.

This is not me being paranoid or conspiracy theory - because the USA has spent anywhere from $2-6 trillion (with a T ) in our wars against Islam for the past 15 years, so the American military is quite capable of controlling everything going in or out over the internet in all of that area.

USA has spent lots of money, therefore an organisation cannot post things on the dark web from the middle east? How are you linking the two? That made no sense. And even if the US military could control things coming out of there, that still doesn't mean the magazine did not originate from ISIS / ISIL.

Quote:
Yes Russia is in on it, and Russians are white imperialist too, and Russia is very anti-Islam and anti terrorism and China surely knows about it all...

But why wouldn't these two countries expose the US and advance their own agenda?

Quote:
and it is debatable as to what North Korea and Iran might know or not know.

So who was attacking Iran, if not ISIS / ISIL? Are you going to claim that Iran wasn't attacked by terrorist and the whole thing is staged?

Quote:
The ones who are truly misinformed is the general population of the USA, and probably the population of Europe too is just as brainwashed by the propaganda machine.

To view the USA as not having any propaganda going on - that would be true insanity.

There quite a jump from USA producing propaganda to USA faking all of it.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 90: Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:51 pm
Reply
Re: Is there an answer to Islamic terrorism?

Like this post
Bust Nak wrote:

that still doesn't mean the magazine did not originate from ISIS / ISIL.

We have been hearing now 15 years about the USA bombing buildings and murdering Muslims who are labelled as "terrorist" and so a magazine has to have printing press and lots of quality paper for pictures, and the magazines have to delivered to its audience and that can not be done in a war zone with American drones overhead.

So the only way any magazine can originate in that area or beyond is by the permission and consent of the USA military.

Bust Nak wrote:

But why wouldn't these two countries expose the US and advance their own agenda?

For Russia it is their own agenda (and USA agenda) to murder Muslims and to protect the status quo including the Dictator of Syria.

Where is their shared agenda not being pursued?

Bust Nak wrote:

So who was attacking Iran, if not ISIS / ISIL? Are you going to claim that Iran wasn't attacked by terrorist and the whole thing is staged?

If you mean the Kurdish attack on Iran - then yes they are the American puppets in that area.

The USA has long been offering the Kurdish fighters their own territory claims if they will fight for the American objectives.

That is not some secret alliance. The British know, see a BBC report here = Who are the Kurds?.

Bust Nak wrote:

There quite a jump from USA producing propaganda to USA faking all of it.

No - it is not that big of a jump.

The Syrian people rose up against their own evil Dictator - and the USA called the Syrian people as ISIL and ISIS and murdered them by the hundreds of thousands, and displaced them by the multiple millions.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile Visit poster's website 
Display posts from previous:   

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 ... 19, 20, 21  Next

Jump to:  
Facebook
Tweet

 




On The Web | Ecodia | Hymn Lyrics Apps
Facebook | Twitter

Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group.   Produced by Ecodia.

Igloo   |  Lo-Fi Version