Can we find good in God?

[marco]

I cannot see much in the OT God beyond violence and anger. He may have removed the splinter from someone's foot but the general picture, for me, is one of unremitting terror, except when he is addressing a favourite human. For example, what friend would ask a father to kill his son?

We can all find examples of savagery, brutality, jealousy, spite ,,, but since it is Christmas, can we try to find examples where Jehovah is unambiguously kind?

Or is Jehovah simply beyond redemption?

[marco]

I have no reason to think they didn’t understand. And sorry, I don’t think knowing all is necessary for freedom. Person can always want freely also things he doesn’t know yet (something else).

Don't you see that you are scraping the bottom of the barrel just to get ANYTHING that says Yahweh is nice. You say he gave us fruit; you've been told much of the fruit he offered is poisonous. We kill in order to eat and animals massacre each other to live. Where in the OT does God display simple, unambiguous acts of kindness? Asked for help to get Moses and his people out of Egypt, he messes around with plagues, most of them unsuccessful until he hits on infanticide. Where O where is there evidence of a good Yahweh, except in people's minds? He wasn't meant to be cuddly and kind, and he certainly isn't.

[rikuoamero]

I cannot see much in the OT God beyond violence and anger. He may have removed the splinter from someone's foot but the general picture, for me, is one of unremitting terror, except when he is addressing a favourite human. For example, what friend would ask a father to kill his son?

We can all find examples of savagery, brutality, jealousy, spite ,,, but since it is Christmas, can we try to find examples where Jehovah is unambiguously kind?

Or is Jehovah simply beyond redemption?

If the OT account is true, then Jehovah gave life to everything that lives, food to everything that eats, and air to everything that breaths. He provided the ability to feel love, hope, joy, contentment, wonder, peace, and meaning. He is slow to anger, abounding in steadfast love, and “His love endures forever.�

These seem like good things.

Bjs, since others (marco especially) have corrected you on this, I'm not going to do the same.
Instead, I'm going to ask why did you respond the way that you did? Surely any person half-way familiar with Yahweh from the OT and reality itself would have been able to realize what sort of responses he would get for writing what you did.

[William]

[Replying to post 30 by marco]

He was meant to intimidate and he does. Jesus introduced a new character in a new play.

The bible appears to be a lot of individual plays all bundled together. Your argument is that the GOD idea Jesus introduced is different from the old one so as to appear to be another character entirely.

Yet I have seen it argued that this new idea of GOD is no better than the old one. Perhaps you yourself have even argued this.

So basically you are doing a book review

That is precisely what I am doing.

Well why is your focus upon the old part of the book and its idea of GOD? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to review the book as a whole?
And since your focus is also on the main character, (The GOD in the book) wouldn't you be better off approaching it as the story of a GOD which is ongoing and lives not only in the book but outside of the book as well? Because that is part of the book story, is it not?

The way you are approaching this review places your position wholly focused in the red area as shown in the image below.



The book itself focuses on a past, present and future.

Was Jesus introducing a side of GOD to which humans had not really either anticipated or contemplated before? What about that is worthy of critique?

Are you attempting to place a wedge between the ideas of Yahweh and The Father in order to present them as two different GODs in the same story?

If so, then back to my question as to why you would want to do this.

Is it because you think the idea of GOD has to be only GOOD, and absolutely good at that?

What idea are you basing your critique upon?

You think the playwrights painted the being they wanted. What being do you think they should have painted?

Is it this 'new character in a new play' you say Jesus introduced, or is that one not up to standard as well?

[William]

[Replying to post 31 by marco]

Don't you see that you are scraping the bottom of the barrel just to get ANYTHING that says Yahweh is nice. You say he gave us fruit; you've been told much of the fruit he offered is poisonous. We kill in order to eat and animals massacre each other to live. Where in the OT does God display simple, unambiguous acts of kindness? Asked for help to get Moses and his people out of Egypt, he messes around with plagues, most of them unsuccessful until he hits on infanticide. Where O where is there evidence of a good Yahweh, except in people's minds? He wasn't meant to be cuddly and kind, and he certainly isn't.

I get the impression here that you are saying if GOD (any idea re that subject) were removed from the reality of our actual situation, then we are effective able to grasp that we live in an imperfect reality, a realty which is full off nothing but danger and death.

Thus, bringing in ideas of GOD which are fluffy and kind are at odds with that reality.

In that case, - given your critique of the idea of GOD in Yahweh, having no redeemable qualities, wouldn't that idea be more aligned with your understanding of life as it really is, rather than it being aligned with the fluffiness of Jesus' Father idea of GOD?

At least, you appear to be saying that life itself here on this planet has no redeemable qualities.

What are you trying to say exactly?

[marco]

What are you trying to say exactly?

Till now I thought I was a reasonably articulate communicator.

I get the impression here that you are saying if GOD (any idea re that subject) were removed from the reality of our actual situation, then we are effective able to grasp that we live in an imperfect reality, a realty which is full off nothing but danger and death.

Yes, perhaps I do communicate imperfectly.

Thus, bringing in ideas of GOD which are fluffy and kind are at odds with that reality.

Mea culpa, it seems.

In that case, - given your critique of the idea of GOD in Yahweh, having no redeemable qualities, wouldn't that idea be more aligned with your understanding of life as it really is, rather than it being aligned with the fluffiness of Jesus' Father idea of GOD?

I gave a picture of Yahweh as Yahweh is painted and I asked for some redeeming features in case I was overlooking some pleasant trait.

At least, you appear to be saying that life itself here on this planet has no redeemable qualities.

I am blissfully unaware of having pronounced anything of the sort. I was discussing Yahweh.

What are you trying to say exactly?

How about: Can we find any good in Jehovah, the being of the Bible?

[tam]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

As bjs also said, God created life. Life came from Him, from His love and from His energy. So that is good. He also offered (and still offers) eternal life. That too is good.

His promises of life (and eternal life) are for us and also for our children. That is good and perhaps one of the most joyous things to be thankful for, since we who receive eternal life can be assured that our loved ones will also be with us. We can see that God saves us and our children from some OT examples: such as Noah's faith saving him AND his household; of Rahab's faith saving her and her household. The blood of the lamb on the doorposts of the homes of Israelites in Egypt caused Death to pass over the ENTIRE house (and so the entire household was saved from death). The covenant with Abraham saved his entire household (and offspring).

Some people just need to look with better eyes... or rather listen with better ears.


Then there are also some words which show what God desires AND SO show what is in HIM:

Micah 6:8

He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.


Isaiah 57:18

For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy, "I dwell on a high and holy place, And also with the contrite and lowly of spirit In order to revive the spirit of the lowly And to revive the heart of the contrite.


Isaiah 58

“Shout it aloud, do not hold back.
Raise your voice like a trumpet.
Declare to my people their rebellion
and to the descendants of Jacob their sins.
For day after day they seek me out;
they seem eager to know my ways,
as if they were a nation that does what is right
and has not forsaken the commands of its God.

They ask me for just decisions
and seem eager for God to come near them.
‘Why have we fasted,’ they say,
‘and you have not seen it?
Why have we humbled ourselves,
and you have not noticed?’

“Yet on the day of your fasting, you do as you please
and exploit all your workers;
Your fasting ends in quarreling and strife,
and in striking each other with wicked fists.
You cannot fast as you do today
and expect your voice to be heard on high.

Is this the kind of fast I have chosen,
only a day for people to humble themselves?
Is it only for bowing one’s head like a reed
and for lying in sackcloth and ashes?
Is that what you call a fast,
a day acceptable to the Lord?

“Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice
and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free
and break every yoke?
Is it not to share your food with the hungry
and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—
when you see the naked, to clothe them,
and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?

Then your light will break forth like the dawn,
and your healing will quickly appear;
then your righteousness[a] will go before you,
and the glory of the Lord will be your rear guard.
Then you will call, and the Lord will answer;
you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.

“If you do away with the yoke of oppression,
with the pointing finger and malicious talk,
and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry
and satisfy the needs of the oppressed,
then your light will rise in the darkness,
and your night will become like the noonday.

The Lord will guide you always;
he will satisfy your needs in a sun-scorched land
and will strengthen your frame.
You will be like a well-watered garden,
like a spring whose waters never fail.




It continues, and there are many other examples, but I hope you get the gist. And this is just from the OT.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[marco]

His promises of life .....

Promises are not actions. They are unfulfilled in the future.

We can see that God saves us and our children from some OT examples: such as Noah's faith saving him AND his household; of Rahab's faith saving her and her household. The blood of the lamb on the doorposts of the homes of Israelites in Egypt caused Death to pass over the ENTIRE house (and so the entire household was saved from death). The covenant with Abraham saved his entire household (and offspring).

These are not unambiguous acts of kindness. He drowned thousands and saved a few. Rahab was saved, thousands in the city were massacred. Innocent first born children were slaughtered. Abraham was asked to murder Isaac. There is more cruelty than kindness here.

The Lord will guide you always;
he will satisfy your needs in a sun-scorched land
and will strengthen your frame.
You will be like a well-watered garden,
like a spring whose waters never fail.[/color]

This is poetry. In reality there is no water for thirsty children and no help for his people in the Holocaust. Some rich people today may well enjoy these amenities, but they don't come from God.


I accept you do your bit, Tam, to serve the God who serves you well. I see and I hear - but the noise in the background of suffering children is louder than the praise.

[1213]

Understanding, for example that they would condemn all of creation.

They didn’t condemn all of creation, because according to the Bible, many will get the eternal life.

I don't think they understood that or all the other ramifications. But perhaps you could provide the Bible verse that shows me wrong?

They understood all that was needed.

The woman said to the serpent, "Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat, but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'"
Gen. 3:2-3

But they rejected God and rather believed the “serpent�.

[1213]

Don't you see that you are scraping the bottom of the barrel just to get ANYTHING that says Yahweh is nice. You say he gave us fruit; you've been told much of the fruit he offered is poisonous.

IS knowledge really poisonous?

We kill in order to eat and animals massacre each other to live. Where in the OT does God display simple, unambiguous acts of kindness?

In giving life for people and being merciful, even when people deserve to die.

Asked for help to get Moses and his people out of Egypt, he messes around with plagues, most of them unsuccessful until he hits on infanticide. Where O where is there evidence of a good Yahweh, except in people's minds? He wasn't meant to be cuddly and kind, and he certainly isn't.

I think it would not be kind to let evil people live forever. I think it would not be kind to let Jews be slaves. I think is not kind to not care and end if people are evil and do bad things. But I understand that your opinion is that you don’t like God’s judgements. I think they are correct and God has right to end evilness, even if it would mean that I must die also. In my opinion God is good and righteous and all of his judgments are good.

[marco]

The woman said to the serpent, "Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat, but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'"
Gen. 3:2-3

But they rejected God and rather believed the “serpent�.

You have just quoted direct speech from the first woman on earth and used this as some sort of justification for the evil in the world. Is it not absurd to think we know EXACTLY what Eve said?

IS knowledge really poisonous?

I never said it was.

We kill in order to eat and animals massacre each other to live. Where in the OT does God display simple, unambiguous acts of kindness?

In giving life for people and being merciful, even when people deserve to die.

Well he flooded the earth and he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, among other things. You mean he should have killed us all but held back a bit.

I think it would not be kind to let evil people live forever.

Well he let them live considerably longer than some good people whom they killed. A story for you from the Ukraine... a murderer broke into a farmhouse and killed the man and his wife, but the little daughter ran upstairs to her room and prayed for help to God. The murderer in his statement reported he heard her praying but smashed her skull all the same.
What father, asked for bread, gives his son a stone?

I think it would not be kind to let Jews be slaves.

Why? He let others be slaves. And from biblical accounts they were in Egypt for a long time. And look what he did to provide a new home for them, the promised land. Was that good?

In my opinion God is good and righteous and all of his judgments are good.

And I would share your opinion if there was a shred of evidence to justify it. All examples of God's apparent goodness are rooted in misery, punishment, death or suffering.