There Is No Such Thing As Valid Prophecy

RedEye · Post by **RedEye** » Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:10 am

Christians will often cite fulfilled prophecy as evidence for their religion being true. Ignoring the fact that none of these so-called fulfilled prophecies hold up to scrutiny when closely examined, is such biblical prophecy even possible in the first place?

For prophecy to be possible, the future must be predetermined. That is the only way that the path of the future could be known with absolute certainty. However, if the future is predetermined then there can be no such thing as human free will. Free will cannot exist in a universe where the course of the universe is already known in detail in advance. We could only be automatons acting out a predetermined script with no deviation possible.

That creates a dilemma for Christians who want both prophecy to be valid and free will to exist. They obviously can't have both.

If you are a Christian the question is, which one of these are you willing to give up and why?

Willum · Post by **Willum** » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:30 pm

[Replying to post 50 by jeremiah1five]

No, I am saying God CAN infringe on the freewill of the collective, without violating the freewill of an individual.

jeremiah1five · Post by **jeremiah1five** » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:32 pm

Willum wrote: [Replying to post 50 by jeremiah1five]

No, I am saying God CAN infringe on the freewill of the collective, without violating the freewill of an individual.

Explain it before I reject it.

RedEye · Post by **RedEye** » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:10 pm

Willum wrote: [Replying to post 48 by RedEye]
What do you mean by "repeat"? What do humans repeat?
Dictators rise and fall, history repeats.

Okay, so history can repeat (to a certain extent, as in repeating mistakes of the past). However individual humans don't repeat which is what you seemed to be implying. History can also not repeat. There was only one Renaissance for example. I'm not sure what point it is you think you are making.

You can only "guide" a group by "guiding" one or more individuals within the group. Isn't that an interference with free will?
No, group and mass psychology shows us that people behave differently in groups than they do as individuals. So God, if he existed, could motivate a group and not violate free will. There are many simple and more elegant examples. A group may do things an individual would not.

How exactly does God "motivate" a group without "motivating" one or more of the individuals within it? It seems that you are just choosing different words like "motivate" and "guide" to try and disguise the fact that such an action by God indisputably constitutes interference with free will.

jeremiah1five · Post by **jeremiah1five** » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:13 pm

RedEye wrote:
Willum wrote: [Replying to post 48 by RedEye]
What do you mean by "repeat"? What do humans repeat?
Dictators rise and fall, history repeats.
Okay, so history can repeat (to a certain extent, as in repeating mistakes of the past). However individual humans don't repeat which is what you seemed to be implying. History can also not repeat. There was only one Renaissance for example. I'm not sure what point it is you think you are making.

You can only "guide" a group by "guiding" one or more individuals within the group. Isn't that an interference with free will?
No, group and mass psychology shows us that people behave differently in groups than they do as individuals. So God, if he existed, could motivate a group and not violate free will. There are many simple and more elegant examples. A group may do things an individual would not.
How exactly does God "motivate" a group without "motivating" one or more of the individuals within it? It seems that you are just choosing different words like "motivate" and "guide" to try and disguise the fact that such an action by God indisputably constitutes interference with free will.

Call willum's comment as you think, but to me it is error.

Willum · Post by **Willum** » Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:01 am

jeremiah1five wrote:
Willum wrote: [Replying to post 50 by jeremiah1five]

No, I am saying God CAN infringe on the freewill of the collective, without violating the freewill of an individual.
Explain it before I reject it.

There is group and mass psychology, if you would peruse the subjects, and there is nowhere in the Bible to contradict it.

As far as you rejecting it: Why should I care? It does not change reality of psychology, or the Bible.

Willum · Post by **Willum** » Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:11 am

[Replying to post 53 by RedEye]

Okay, so history can repeat (to a certain extent, as in repeating mistakes of the past). However individual humans don't repeat which is what you seemed to be implying.

That amount of repetition is all that is required.

How exactly does God "motivate" a group without "motivating" one or more of the individuals within it? It seems that you are just choosing different words like "motivate" and "guide" to try and disguise the fact that such an action by God indisputably constitutes interference with free will.

1. He's God, he has magic powers, remember.
2. The psychology of groups:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowd_psychology
3. He throws a tidal wave at a city. Suddenly everyone is acting en masse as opposed to as individuals.
4. The jerry-mander, where the will of individuals succumbs to virtually any will at all. It is easy to imagine a magic person creating circumstance which create a non-artificial (non-voter) scenario that accomplishes a jerry-mander.
5. That's just a few.

jeremiah1five · Post by **jeremiah1five** » Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:12 pm

Willum wrote:
jeremiah1five wrote:
Willum wrote: [Replying to post 50 by jeremiah1five]

No, I am saying God CAN infringe on the freewill of the collective, without violating the freewill of an individual.
Explain it before I reject it.
There is group and mass psychology, if you would peruse the subjects, and there is nowhere in the Bible to contradict it.

As far as you rejecting it: Why should I care? It does not change reality of psychology, or the Bible.

QUOTE: No, I am saying God CAN infringe on the freewill of the collective, without violating the freewill of an individual.

RESPONSE: If each person exercises their so-called free will to the same result it's the same as one person exercising their free will to the same result.

By the way, there is no free will in man. Free will in man is an illusion. You can will to try to fly by jumping off a building with no apparatus except your arms but the Law of God called gravity will interfere with that will to fly.

Thus, God has interfered with your 'free' will.

You do not have free will. You think you do but it only operates within the confines of the Eternal Will of God.
Do you know how many wills in people were interfered with at the advent of Jesus the first time?

Millions.

Just wait when He comes a second time then it will be billions.

Willum · Post by **Willum** » Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:27 pm

[Replying to post 57 by jeremiah1five]

You don't understand your collegues' points of view very well, do you?
Many religious people believe in, and indeed come up with specious arguments for freewill, and use it to justify other mythological properties.

So, in this we agree, were there an All Powerful Entity (APE), that APE's will would identify itself with reality.
Everything it believed would be true, if it changed it's mind (something not possible) reality would warp in response to its all powerful thoughts.

It is as simple as that.

However, your colleagues make Apologetic arguments that this "what-if" isn't true, and say there would be, indeed is, freewill.

So, if we agree with that particular wrinkle (for sake of discussion, since obviously neither of us believe it), of a particular myth, then Mass Psychology, and other characteristics of human nature and even more fundamental properties, allow any God to control groups of people without violating individual freewill. It could easily be viewed as part of the APE's design.

It is a very interesting bit of existential religion, one you'd think "freewill" advocates would jump on like a bus out of Hell. But no, everybody says stupid things, like "groups are just individuals."

Ah, well.

jeremiah1five · Post by **jeremiah1five** » Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:14 pm

Willum wrote: [Replying to post 57 by jeremiah1five]

You don't understand your collegues' points of view very well, do you?
Many religious people believe in, and indeed come up with specious arguments for freewill, and use it to justify other mythological properties.

So, in this we agree, were there an All Powerful Entity (APE), that APE's will would identify itself with reality.
Everything it believed would be true, if it changed it's mind (something not possible) reality would warp in response to its all powerful thoughts.

It is as simple as that.

However, your colleagues make Apologetic arguments that this "what-if" isn't true, and say there would be, indeed is, freewill.

So, if we agree with that particular wrinkle (for sake of discussion, since obviously neither of us believe it), of a particular myth, then Mass Psychology, and other characteristics of human nature and even more fundamental properties, allow any God to control groups of people without violating individual freewill. It could easily be viewed as part of the APE's design.

It is a very interesting bit of existential religion, one you'd think "freewill" advocates would jump on like a bus out of Hell. But no, everybody says stupid things, like "groups are just individuals."

Ah, well.

I think it's bat outta hell.
He might be a democrat.

RedEye · Post by **RedEye** » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:30 pm

Willum wrote: [Replying to post 53 by RedEye]
Okay, so history can repeat (to a certain extent, as in repeating mistakes of the past). However individual humans don't repeat which is what you seemed to be implying.
That amount of repetition is all that is required.

I'm afraid I have no idea what that means.

How exactly does God "motivate" a group without "motivating" one or more of the individuals within it? It seems that you are just choosing different words like "motivate" and "guide" to try and disguise the fact that such an action by God indisputably constitutes interference with free will.
1. He's God, he has magic powers, remember.
2. The psychology of groups:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowd_psychology
3. He throws a tidal wave at a city. Suddenly everyone is acting en masse as opposed to as individuals.
4. The jerry-mander, where the will of individuals succumbs to virtually any will at all. It is easy to imagine a magic person creating circumstance which create a non-artificial (non-voter) scenario that accomplishes a jerry-mander.
5. That's just a few.

I'm not buying it. A disaster is just a disaster. The causes are always natural. (Putting aside the fact that you are painting God as a malicious and destructive meddler). I can't imagine a situation where people are influenced without interference in some way as individuals. You are asserting that it is possible but you aren't explaining how. I think I have lost interest anyway, to be honest. This seems to be a fairly pointless discussion.