There Is No Such Thing As Valid Prophecy

[RedEye]

Christians will often cite fulfilled prophecy as evidence for their religion being true. Ignoring the fact that none of these so-called fulfilled prophecies hold up to scrutiny when closely examined, is such biblical prophecy even possible in the first place?

For prophecy to be possible, the future must be predetermined. That is the only way that the path of the future could be known with absolute certainty. However, if the future is predetermined then there can be no such thing as human free will. Free will cannot exist in a universe where the course of the universe is already known in detail in advance. We could only be automatons acting out a predetermined script with no deviation possible.

That creates a dilemma for Christians who want both prophecy to be valid and free will to exist. They obviously can't have both.

If you are a Christian the question is, which one of these are you willing to give up and why?

[jeremiah1five]

Christians will often cite fulfilled prophecy as evidence for their religion being true.

Wow. I never heard that one. However, I would rather that fulfilled prophecy in context to God and the people of God is evidence to God being true, not religion.

Ignoring the fact that none of these so-called fulfilled prophecies hold up to scrutiny when closely examined, is such biblical prophecy even possible in the first place?

Oh no. They hold up to the scrutiny of the people of God as it is between God and His people. Those outside the Covenant of God are on the outside looking in and that is a poor perspective in which to judge or whatever.

For prophecy to be possible, the future must be predetermined. That is the only way that the path of the future could be known with absolute certainty. However, if the future is predetermined then there can be no such thing as human free will. Free will cannot exist in a universe where the course of the universe is already known in detail in advance.

There is no free will in man. Free will in man is an illusion. Everything - from asteroids hitting the planet to stars exploding in the deepest space as well as the daily affairs of man is predestined. Predetermined, as you say. And it is the 'will' of man that operates within the Eternal Will of God. One is either born a sheep, or one is born a goat. One is not born a goat and then become saved and now they are sheep. That violates the Decree of God of "after their kind" in Genesis.
I commend you for your reasoning - or your source.

We could only be automatons acting out a predetermined script with no deviation possible.

When I contemplate the expanse of the Eternal Will of God in relation to people and what appears to be a will but is not, I am astounded that we can actually will in our lives to the point that it appears to be a free will, but it is not. It is an operative will within the confines of the Eternal will of God. God knows the end from the beginning because He has ordained the end.

That creates a dilemma for Christians who want both prophecy to be valid and free will to exist. They obviously can't have both.
If you are a Christian the question is, which one of these are you willing to give up and why?

In order to give up something, one must first possess it. We possess a will but not a free will.
And fulfilled prophecy within the Covenant God has with His Elect people is evidence that God is true.
And keeps His Promises.

[amortalman]

Determinism is a logical consequence of valid divine prophecy.

Will you please explain how you came to that conclusion. Thanks.

[Willum]

For once, I am afraid I must agree with theists on this one.

Freewill, although it is NOT mentioned in the Bible anywhere, and is just an Apologetic invention.

Anyway...
Freewill applies to individuals.

Mass and group psychology allows God to influence groups without interfering with freewill.
Individuals behave as they believe, but act differently in groups.

So that being the case, God could enact prophesy, without infringing on freewill.

[RedEye]

For prophecy to be possible, the future must be predetermined. That is the only way that the path of the future could be known with absolute certainty. However, if the future is predetermined then there can be no such thing as human free will. Free will cannot exist in a universe where the course of the universe is already known in detail in advance.

There is no free will in man. Free will in man is an illusion. Everything - from asteroids hitting the planet to stars exploding in the deepest space as well as the daily affairs of man is predestined. Predetermined, as you say. And it is the 'will' of man that operates within the Eternal Will of God. One is either born a sheep, or one is born a goat. One is not born a goat and then become saved and now they are sheep. That violates the Decree of God of "after their kind" in Genesis.
I commend you for your reasoning - or your source.

Okay, that is another vote for no free will. Thank you.

[RedEye]

Determinism is a logical consequence of valid divine prophecy.

Will you please explain how you came to that conclusion. Thanks.

If you read back through the thread (including the OP), I have done so many times. Thank you.

[RedEye]

Freewill applies to individuals.

Mass and group psychology allows God to influence groups without interfering with freewill.
Individuals behave as they believe, but act differently in groups.

So that being the case, God could enact prophesy, without infringing on freewill.

You may need to explain how God can know of an event with certainty into the future (often many centuries from the present) if the future is not already predetermined. If you agree that the future must be predetermined then how can humans be making free will choices at every point leading up to that certain event?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 46 by RedEye]

That isn't as difficult as it sounds.
Humans repeat.
Nature repeats.

If God can guide groups, then this is not that difficult, given plenty of time.

But to exacerbate your point: I have often wondered about freewill in the face of eternity. a subject theists avoid like the plague.

If Pilate had freewill, what if he had decided to let Jesus go?
What if an apostle had assassinated Jesus?
What if any individual in the Bible who was in a capitol-deciding role, had acted differently. What is the fate of the universe, vs one person?

I mean theoretically, Adam and Eve didn't need to take a bite right?
What if Noah accidentally had a flaw in the ark? and so on.

Or what if they did?

[RedEye]

[Replying to post 46 by RedEye]

That isn't as difficult as it sounds.
Humans repeat.
Nature repeats.

What do you mean by "repeat"? What do humans repeat?

If God can guide groups, then this is not that difficult, given plenty of time.

You can only "guide" a group by "guiding" one or more individuals within the group. Isn't that an interference with free will?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 48 by RedEye]

What do you mean by "repeat"? What do humans repeat?

Dictators rise and fall, history repeats.

You can only "guide" a group by "guiding" one or more individuals within the group. Isn't that an interference with free will?

No, group and mass psychology shows us that people behave differently in groups than they do as individuals. So God, if he existed, could motivate a group and not violate free will. There are many simple and more elegant examples.
A group may do things an individual would not.

[jeremiah1five]

For once, I am afraid I must agree with theists on this one.

Freewill, although it is NOT mentioned in the Bible anywhere, and is just an Apologetic invention.

Anyway...
Freewill applies to individuals.

Mass and group psychology allows God to influence groups without interfering with freewill.
Individuals behave as they believe, but act differently in groups.

So that being the case, God could enact prophesy, without infringing on freewill.

Let's say a group of people, maybe a political convention with thousands of people. Are you saying God would not infringe on the free will of the collective, that is to go on such and such date at such and such hour and proceed to have a free will of a time?

At that moment Christ returns and blows that free will position to hell.

The return of Christ is evidence that there is no free will in man. If there was, then Christ's return has violated that free will to take your boy on Sunday after church to play catch. Jesus returns and cancels that game of "God will not interfere on my 'free' will when I have a date with my son," argument, right?