No need to wait for the future, at least not if you had evidence.
Present reality is what matters, reality in the local bar and the Quaker meeting.
Plenty of folks who aren't filthy, rotten sinners.
William wrote: [Replying to post 161 by tam]
Then there are questions about me: Would I have been the same person at that time? How might events have shaped me differently? Would I have known then what/who I know now?
(Some also seem to forget that Israel vowed to obey Moses. Israel was too afraid to hear God, they wanted Moses to talk to God, then tell them what God wanted, and they would obey whatever Moses, the servant of God, said. So Israel was obligated by their own word. That was their choice.)
These two things appear to me to be at odds with each other.Oh, and there is at least one thing I could have done regardless of the circumstances (or of the time or place or conditions):
I could have asked for mercy for the man. God desires mercy, after all, and not sacrifice (Hosea 6:6). If I had the courage and the love to do this, then I would have done so respectfully, as Abraham asked God about Sodom and Gomorrah. But asking mercy for the man is something I could have done, even 3000-ish years ago.
This is what I don't get about you. Here you are, saying that people being hateful, violent and murderous is a bad thing (sinful in your words). I would not disagree. I wish we would not be hateful, violent and murderous.But even so, we're all about ourselves; selfish, prideful, disdaining others, even hating and murderous, at least to some degree. All this manifests itself differently in different people, but it's all there, even if muted... or only inwardly. This is the way we all are. Every one of us. As I said above -- not in so many words, but I will now: just because we are sinners -- even filthy, rotten sinners... as if one sinner is a worse sinner than anybody else -- doesn't mean we are in human terms "bad people." It just (chuckle... "just") means we fall far, far short of God's standard of perfection and perfect mercy, justice, and love.
No, it's really not about the Hebrews -- Israelites -- at all. It's about God and His hatred of sin, and His desire to free His people from the bondage to sin that they themselves -- in Adam, as the federal head of the human race -- chose. Humanly speaking, it's about the "stick-picker-upper" (again, it's somewhat humorous, in a dark way, how you guys try to trivialize it) and his disregard for and even hatred of God and His Law -- which was itself redemptive and not punitive -- and his deserved punishment. And in that way, it's a lesson for us even today. This is precisely why Moses related the incident. Like I said, we don't have to worry about getting stoned for sin, because the civil law is no longer in effect. But the wages of sin is still death, and we, just like the Israelites, need a Savior Who has paid it Himself on our behalf and thereby redeemed us to God.rikuoamero wrote:It's about a bunch of Hebrews, being hateful, violent and murderous toward their fellow man (there's no point arguing with me on the point of them being hateful, this is a stoning after all) apparently at the command of their god.
That can't be what you really think. It's the very opposite. Surely you understand that. Surely. But, ergo, no explanation necessary.rikuoamero wrote:Explain it to me Pin, how this thing that you call sinful, this violence hate and murder...is or was commanded by your god.
No, what turns you off is your own hatred, your own pride, your own selfishness... your own sin. Oh, I'm sure you're a nice guy, and if we sat down and had a Bud Light together, I'm quite sure we'd get along quite well. But that's really beside the point. All this proves my point. Again.rikuoamero wrote:This is what turns me off from your religion.
I agree that we shouldn't just wait on the future.Tcg wrote:No need to wait for the future...
But I do. Or rather, we do; there's all we need, or could ever ask for, really. Like I said, you will see.Tcg wrote:...at least not if you had evidence.
Well, I agree that present reality matters. But really only because of it's impact on the coming Reality.Tcg wrote:Present reality is what matters...
Nope. Not one.Tcg wrote:Plenty of folks who aren't filthy, rotten sinners.
If you and I sat down had a Bud Light (well you can have that, I don't like alcohol), why then would you say of me that I hate, am prideful, am selfish? What makes you think that of me, if you're not going by my actions? It's like you're convicting people (just like the man in Numbers 15) of all sorts of things and they don't have the benefit of a defense, to argue their own case.No, what turns you off is your own hatred, your own pride, your own selfishness... your own sin. Oh, I'm sure you're a nice guy, and if we sat down and had a Bud Light Smile together, I'm quite sure we'd get along quite well.
As far as I'm aware, I'm the only one who has used that term. I use it to make my point, that all of this is over a man...who picked up sticks. He didn't kidnap someone, he didn't rape someone, he didn't sell out his people to enemy tribes...he just picked up sticks.Humanly speaking, it's about the "stick-picker-upper" (again, it's somewhat humorous, in a dark way, how you guys try to trivialize it)
I find it appalling how you are able to read all this of the man, and say he's evil and hated your god...when the story is incredibly brief and doesn't tell us anything about him. I reiterate what I said in an earlier comment: this religion of yours divides mankind, and despite all the rhetoric of peace and love...actually has you, its adherents, hating their fellow man.and his disregard for and even hatred of God and His Law
Which was apparently heavy stones to the skull.and his deserved punishment.
You're complaining about violence and murder from humans towards humans, and this story has your god commanding violence and murder from humans towards humans. So yes, it is what I think. If violence and murder is a bad thing in your eyes (and mine), why is your god commanding it?That can't be what you really think. It's the very opposite. Surely you understand that. Surely. But, ergo, no explanation necessary.
Negativism toward humanity is often a hallmark of religions that sell 'redemption' in a supposed 'afterlife'.
These two things appear to me to be at odds with each other.
Well Tam, it seems from what I understand you are trying to say, that you being you now with the knowledge you know etc - then transported to that time, would attempt to convince Moses - whom you say that Israel vowed to obey...rather than GOD...In what way, William?