Would you stone the man described in Numbers 15?

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Tcg
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Re: Would you stone the man described in Numbers 15?

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PinSeeker wrote:
Tcg wrote:Yes, we have finally found a point of agreement.


Good! Right, because you're "reality" is not really reality. You'll see. You'll see.

No need to wait for the future, at least not if you had evidence.


Present reality is what matters, reality in the local bar and the Quaker meeting.


Plenty of folks who aren't filthy, rotten sinners.






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Re: Would you stone the man described in Numbers 15?

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
William wrote: [Replying to post 161 by tam]
Then there are questions about me: Would I have been the same person at that time? How might events have shaped me differently? Would I have known then what/who I know now?

(Some also seem to forget that Israel vowed to obey Moses. Israel was too afraid to hear God, they wanted Moses to talk to God, then tell them what God wanted, and they would obey whatever Moses, the servant of God, said. So Israel was obligated by their own word. That was their choice.)

and;
Oh, and there is at least one thing I could have done regardless of the circumstances (or of the time or place or conditions):


I could have asked for mercy for the man. God desires mercy, after all, and not sacrifice (Hosea 6:6). If I had the courage and the love to do this, then I would have done so respectfully, as Abraham asked God about Sodom and Gomorrah. But asking mercy for the man is something I could have done, even 3000-ish years ago.
These two things appear to me to be at odds with each other.

In what way, William?

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rikuoamero
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Re: Would you stone the man described in Numbers 15?

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[Replying to post 167 by PinSeeker]
But even so, we're all about ourselves; selfish, prideful, disdaining others, even hating and murderous, at least to some degree. All this manifests itself differently in different people, but it's all there, even if muted... or only inwardly. This is the way we all are. Every one of us. As I said above -- not in so many words, but I will now: just because we are sinners -- even filthy, rotten sinners... as if one sinner is a worse sinner than anybody else -- doesn't mean we are in human terms "bad people." It just (chuckle... "just") means we fall far, far short of God's standard of perfection and perfect mercy, justice, and love.
This is what I don't get about you. Here you are, saying that people being hateful, violent and murderous is a bad thing (sinful in your words). I would not disagree. I wish we would not be hateful, violent and murderous.
And yet, what is this very story about? It's about a bunch of Hebrews, being hateful, violent and murderous toward their fellow man (there's no point arguing with me on the point of them being hateful, this is a stoning after all) apparently at the command of their god.
Explain it to me Pin, how this thing that you call sinful, this violence hate and murder...is or was commanded by your god. This is what turns me off from your religion. On the one hand, you guys say there's thing called sin that your god is basically repelled by, that we as humans are supposed to not do or not be...and yet apparently your god commands for us to be sinful, do sin?
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Re: Would you stone the man described in Numbers 15?

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rikuoamero wrote:It's about a bunch of Hebrews, being hateful, violent and murderous toward their fellow man (there's no point arguing with me on the point of them being hateful, this is a stoning after all) apparently at the command of their god.
No, it's really not about the Hebrews -- Israelites -- at all. It's about God and His hatred of sin, and His desire to free His people from the bondage to sin that they themselves -- in Adam, as the federal head of the human race -- chose. Humanly speaking, it's about the "stick-picker-upper" (again, it's somewhat humorous, in a dark way, how you guys try to trivialize it) and his disregard for and even hatred of God and His Law -- which was itself redemptive and not punitive -- and his deserved punishment. And in that way, it's a lesson for us even today. This is precisely why Moses related the incident. Like I said, we don't have to worry about getting stoned for sin, because the civil law is no longer in effect. But the wages of sin is still death, and we, just like the Israelites, need a Savior Who has paid it Himself on our behalf and thereby redeemed us to God.
rikuoamero wrote:Explain it to me Pin, how this thing that you call sinful, this violence hate and murder...is or was commanded by your god.
That can't be what you really think. It's the very opposite. Surely you understand that. Surely. But, ergo, no explanation necessary.
rikuoamero wrote:This is what turns me off from your religion.
No, what turns you off is your own hatred, your own pride, your own selfishness... your own sin. Oh, I'm sure you're a nice guy, and if we sat down and had a Bud Light :) together, I'm quite sure we'd get along quite well. But that's really beside the point. All this proves my point. Again.

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Re: Would you stone the man described in Numbers 15?

Post by PinSeeker »

Tcg wrote:No need to wait for the future...
I agree that we shouldn't just wait on the future.
Tcg wrote:...at least not if you had evidence.
But I do. Or rather, we do; there's all we need, or could ever ask for, really. Like I said, you will see.

Tcg wrote:Present reality is what matters...
Well, I agree that present reality matters. But really only because of it's impact on the coming Reality.

Tcg wrote:Plenty of folks who aren't filthy, rotten sinners.
Nope. Not one.

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Re: Would you stone the man described in Numbers 15?

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 173 by PinSeeker]

Pin...you seem to be completely detached from reality.
No, what turns you off is your own hatred, your own pride, your own selfishness... your own sin. Oh, I'm sure you're a nice guy, and if we sat down and had a Bud Light Smile together, I'm quite sure we'd get along quite well.
If you and I sat down had a Bud Light (well you can have that, I don't like alcohol), why then would you say of me that I hate, am prideful, am selfish? What makes you think that of me, if you're not going by my actions? It's like you're convicting people (just like the man in Numbers 15) of all sorts of things and they don't have the benefit of a defense, to argue their own case.
Humanly speaking, it's about the "stick-picker-upper" (again, it's somewhat humorous, in a dark way, how you guys try to trivialize it)
As far as I'm aware, I'm the only one who has used that term. I use it to make my point, that all of this is over a man...who picked up sticks. He didn't kidnap someone, he didn't rape someone, he didn't sell out his people to enemy tribes...he just picked up sticks.
and his disregard for and even hatred of God and His Law
I find it appalling how you are able to read all this of the man, and say he's evil and hated your god...when the story is incredibly brief and doesn't tell us anything about him. I reiterate what I said in an earlier comment: this religion of yours divides mankind, and despite all the rhetoric of peace and love...actually has you, its adherents, hating their fellow man.
and his deserved punishment.
Which was apparently heavy stones to the skull.
That can't be what you really think. It's the very opposite. Surely you understand that. Surely. But, ergo, no explanation necessary.
You're complaining about violence and murder from humans towards humans, and this story has your god commanding violence and murder from humans towards humans. So yes, it is what I think. If violence and murder is a bad thing in your eyes (and mine), why is your god commanding it?
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I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Re: Would you stone the man described in Numbers 15?

Post by Zzyzx »

.
PinSeeker wrote:
Tcg wrote: Plenty of folks who aren't filthy, rotten sinners.
Nope. Not one.
Negativism toward humanity is often a hallmark of religions that sell 'redemption' in a supposed 'afterlife'.

Many of us prefer a more positive attitude and a pleasant life before we die.
.
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If you stop claiming knowledge of invisible, undetectable unicorns, I will stop challenging your claim. Same goes for gods

ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

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Re: Would you stone the man described in Numbers 15?

Post by William »

[Replying to post 171 by tam]
These two things appear to me to be at odds with each other.
In what way, William?
Well Tam, it seems from what I understand you are trying to say, that you being you now with the knowledge you know etc - then transported to that time, would attempt to convince Moses - whom you say that Israel vowed to obey...rather than GOD...

If that is the case, your thinking you can turn that around by asking for mercy for the man by asking Moses 'respectfully' to not sacrifice the man, would most likely get you killed as well, or at least shunned by the Tribe.

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Post by rikuoamero »

I think I'm just about done with this thread (and my own related thread). I've argued my case, and I honestly can't think of anything more to say...bar one.

To the Christians who answered they would stone the man, here's one final question from me, that none of you seem to have even thought of. Admittedly, none of the atheist skeptic crowd seem to have thought of it either...
Why stoning? Even if we (myself and Z and the other atheist skeptics) were to agree with your arguments that this is one of God's highest laws, this is one of the Ten Commandments, this man was evil etc etc...why stoning? Why such a violent and harsh method of execution? Why couldn't God just direct the Hebrews to a plant that when ingested acts as a painless poison?
If we as humans are inherently sinful, inherently evil and wicked and violent, etc etc...why is God commanding a perpetuation of this behaviour? Why not just banish the stick-picker-upper?
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Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Re: Would you stone the man described in Numbers 15?

Post by tam »

[Replying to post 177 by William]

Oh, no, William, time travel considerations were not part of my response. My response considered only having been born and raised back then, as an Israelite (or as one of the great mixed crowd that left Egypt with Israel).


Peace to you.

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