Major unanswered issues regarding the “literal flood"

[Zzyzx]

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In the Head to Head debate between Osteng and Zzyzx, many issues have been raised to cast doubt upon the flood being literally true. The issues have been addressed briefly, shallowly or not at all – while Osteng insists upon expounding upon a “Flood Model” that purports to be “better” than geology and other natural sciences at explaining Earth features, materials, processes, and present and past life forms.

Since the issues have not been successfully addressed, I choose to open them to general discussion. Perhaps there are theists who can help by providing information to support the “literal flood theory” – or theist members who regard the flood tale as less than literally true and who might have helpful comments -- or non-theists who might care to comment on the issues.

Note: Some of the issues raised below are from applicable genesis passages (quoted by Osteng in post #3 of the Head to Head debate). Others are in response to claims made in favor of the “Flood Model”.

There is ONE condition for discussion in this thread – substantiate, substantiate, substantiate – with real world, credible, verifiable information. Conjecture is NOT welcome in this thread. Saying, ”It could have been possible” is NOT acceptable as substantiation (that is known as a “wuss-out”). “Goddidit” and “because the bible says so” do NOT constitute valid arguments in this thread.

Although twenty issues are presented below, I suggest dealing with ONE topic at a time or one per individual post.

Major unanswered issues that cast doubt upon the “literal flood”.

1. How were the animals gathered from around the world to go aboard the ark? No rational explanation has been offered for the gathering of animals worldwide (other than a suggestion that a pair of each “kind” of animal swam, flew, walked, crawled, etc from wherever they lived worldwide to get aboard) and no credible explanation was offered for their return to their native habitats after the flood and cruise -- all without transportation

2. How were thousands or millions of animals fed and cared for on the ark? There has been no satisfactory explanation how thousands or millions of animals aboard a boat could be fed and cared for by eight people during a one-year voyage – with 100% survival to insure that species did not become extinct.)

3. How did Noah build the ark? It has not been shown to be feasible for primitive people without known experience to build a boat larger than any wooden boat known to exist (as long as one and a half football fields and as tall as a five story building -- and 1.5 times as long as the longest wooden ships known to have been built) – during an era when tools were probably stone and when the wheel was unknown (yet millions of pounds of wood were supposed cut, transported, hewn and placed).

4. How did fresh water and salt water fish survive the flood? Survival of freshwater and salt water fish through drastic habitat changes has been addressed only superficially – with the claim that “no provision is necessary because they live in water” and “fish could have been different before the flood”. No evidence has been presented that fish were significantly different a few thousand years ago, that the evolved rapidly into present form and that they then stopped evolving rapidly.

5. How did plants survive a year of being flooded? Survival of plants after a year of flooding has been addressed very superficially by citing means of reproduction NOT survival of plants per se – with conjecture to indicate that restoration of the world’s vegetation happened. No reasoning or evidence has supported the contention. Any plant that could not survive and/or reproduce after a year of flooding would be extinct.

6. How could a dove “return with an olive leaf”? Instantaneous sprouting of an olive leaf just in time to be found by a dove has been weakly discussed – and the very un-dovelike behavior (not shown to be characteristic of doves) of plucking a leaf and returning to the ark has not been shown to be anything other than a children’s bible story.

7. How could fossils have been sorted as thoroughly as we know them to exist in present rock strata if all sedimentary rock was deposited during the flood? No rational answer has been offered to the question of how fossils were sorted into distinct layers (as known to geologists) if all life forms were wiped out at the same time.

8. Unsupported Claim: “The mountains were lower before the flood” has been claimed with NO indication that the mountains were substantially different a few thousand years ago – and no explanation of how the mountains grew suddenly then slowed or stopped growing. This is diametrically opposed to what is understood by those who study the Earth and nature.

9. Unsupported Claim: “The atmosphere was a blanket of water before the flood and it never rained” – (even though people obviously lived on Earth before the flood) is pure conjecture with NO substantiation whatsoever.

10. Unsupported Claim: “The climate was more moderate before the flood” has been claimed. When challenged, the claim was “supported” by citing data relating to climate 50 Million years ago rather than 5 Thousand years ago. AND, the use of such inappropriate and inapplicable data was irrationally “defended” as being representative.

11. Unsupported Claim: “The oceans were much smaller before the flood” is another claim that is made with no substantiation at all. No credible hydrologist, geologist, oceanographer has ever (to my knowledge) proposed that oceans were significantly smaller a few thousand years ago.

12. Unsupported Claim: “The continents were all together before the flood” (unsubstantiated). This represents a distortion of geological studies (based upon actual and accurate measurements) that conclude that continents are moving (on the order of centimeters per year) in relation to one another and have occupied different configurations in the past (millions of years ago – not thousands of years ago).

13. Unsupported Claim: “Water for the flood came from vast caverns ten miles below the Earth’s surface”. NO evidence has been presented that such caverns existed or that they were filled with water. The claim is pure conjecture without even an attempt to provide support or verification.

14. Unsupported Claim: “Water ‘gushing’ out of the [supposed] caverns shoved continents apart”. No evidence is provided to even suggest this is true or that it is possible. The rate of movement apart of North America and Europe would have had to be a minimum of approximately ten miles per day (when actual movement is measured at a few centimeters per year).

15. Unsupported Claim: “Gushing water” formed the mid-oceanic ridges, carved the edges of continents, eroded materials and produced all of the Earth’s sedimentary rocks, ejected material to form comets, (and did not disturb the ark in its journey).

16. Unsupported Claim: “The Earth’s sedimentary rocks were deposited during the flood” – thousands and tens of thousands of feet of sedimentary rocks supposedly deposited in less than a year.

17. Unsupported Claim: “Dinosaurs and humans existed at the same time” (up until the flood). No answer is offered to explain why dinosaur and human fossils are never found in the same rock strata. All studies in anthropology, geology, paleontology, paleobiology, and other natural sciences (based on actual examination of conditions and materials) conclude that dinosaurs were extinct for approximately 65 Million years before Humans appeared. (Emotionally disputed by creationists based on scripture only).

18. Unsupported Claim: “Coal was formed rapidly” [during the flood]. This contrasts with the process of coal formation well known to geologists as well as mining engineers (people actually involved with the subject) – a sequence from peat, to lignite, to bituminous, to anthracite – a slow process.

19. No explanation has been provided for the accumulation of thick layers of salt and gypsum among layers of other sedimentary rocks. Both salt and gypsum are “evaporites” – materials deposited when transporting waters evaporate (as in the case of Great Salt Lake and Bonneville Salt Flats). Evaporites are formed very slowly and NOT by flooding.

20. No explanation has been provided for the presence of limestone – which consists of small, often microscopic, calcium-rich body parts of marine organisms. Deposits of limestone are known to geologists to require warm water and to be a very slow process. Deposits of limestone layers hundreds or thousands of feet thick did NOT occur in a year or in a flood condition.

21. At least twenty separate “miracles” would be required to “explain” the above – since no rational reasons, reasoning, or evidence has been provided to substantiate any of the claims beyond “it could have been possible” (if enough unsupported assumptions are accepted).

22. If “miracles” are invoked to “explain” how the flood was literally true, this is no longer a debate and is no longer scientific – it is pure theology and guesswork opposing the real world and science. “Goddidit” and “miracles” void any claim that reasoning, knowledge, experience, observation, measurement, validation have formed the basis of ideas, theories, or arguments presented.

[kcplusdc@yahoo.com]

I'm willing to concede my point about my feeling that you are using the plot line from the Noah story unfairly. Asking us to prove the hows and whys of specific narratives
In the story but not allowing details that can effect or answer those questions seems one sided and inconsistent. Im confused about when one is allowed to use th the God card I guess.

You seem to accept the plot line that God causes the flood, but cant accept the plot line that a plant can live underwater for a year. You want proof for that.
Another example is you Dont ask for proof that god causes a flood but definitely need proof to explain how the fish survive when God mixed the waters together.

Seems like the major theme of the flood story is God. Everthing runs through him. Hes the prime mover.
Debating the actions of a bird at the end of the story seems like your putting the cart before the horse.
Perhaps that is because God can't be disproven, and as such you need to ignore him at all cost because he can answer all your questions.

Im guilty of putting the cart before the horse myself. Although I mentioned it when I I i first posted a reply on this Op, I should if stayed with it.
Before debating the story of noah one must have there ducks in a row.
Devils in the details.
For example holding on to an argument that has been exposed as not being meaniful
because of new evidence or reasonable doubt, changes the playing field.
One of those apples and oranges kinds deal.
You ask for proof that the account of the flood wss a literal event as expressed in the bible, so I get to work and find out that it wasn't meant to be taken literally in the first places. If i can make a convencing enough case that creates enough doubt your question is no longer meaningful.

First thing worth mentioning is that the authorship of Genesis is contested by Scholars. Agreement on the time when it was written is also up for debate. One theory that I found interesting was that there is evidence and inconsistencies that have biblical scholars thinking that there was more than one writer, in this case three or more who wrote the account of The Genesis Flood. Evidence for this theory is an inconsistent explanations about why man needed to be wiped out. Two versions of ehy was given in short order but they were not the same answers. Writing styles and the name of god was inconsistent p

[Revelations won]

Dear Zzyzx,

As we examine the historical record I find that you have provided no record from that date giving contrary evidence regarding the flood.....could it be that all of your eyewitnesses were drowned before their records were prepared for underwater storage????

Perhaps you can present verified indisputable facts which prove the flood did not exist.

Regards,
RW

[Zzyzx]

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Perhaps you can present verified indisputable facts which prove the flood did not exist.

Quote me verbatim with URL stating / claiming to know 'verified indisputable facts which prove the flood did not exist'.

My position, 'I do not believe your flood tale' and asking for verification of claims does NOT require (in reasoned discussion or debate) that I prove the tale false. ‘You can’t prove my tale false’ is a classic example of the logical blunder Argumentum ad Ignorantiam or Argument from Ignorance (Google if unfamiliar) It is the obligation of flood believers to prove the tale true if challenged – not to demand or challenge others to prove their tale false.

Notice that nearly twelve years ago I posted a list of "Major unanswered issues that cast doubt upon the 'literal flood'". It would take very simplistic thinking to warp that into 'you claimed that the flood did not occur'

There have been 16,577 views of this thread so far. I trust that many readers are not so bound up in dogma that they cannot recognize BIG holes in the story – enough to suggest that it is not likely true or accurate description of an event that actually happened in the real world. Recently some Apologists have watered-down (pun intended) the claim to 'local flood' -- which does not square with statements from the Genesis tale.

Instead of creating straw-men or stinky fish (red herring) 'arguments', feel free to address the 22 points raised -- and/or prove that the flood did occur.

[JehovahsWitness]

1. How were the animals gathered from around the world to go aboard the ark?

• The bible doesn't say animals were "gathered from around the world" it simply says "[animals] kept going to Noah inside the ark, two by two, of every sort of flesh" Genesis 7:14

2. How were thousands or millions of animals fed and cared for on the ark?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 64#p792164

How did Noah build the ark?

• The same way the ancient "primitive people without known experience" built the pyramids. Note the ark was not of a particularly difficult design it was essentially just a large rectangle box. It was indeed colossal in size but given enough time, manpower and materials, there is no reason to deem it humanly impossible.
  
  

4. How did fresh water and salt water fish survive the flood? Scientists theorize that seawater wasn’t always salty; when the Earth’s oceans first formed the oceans were mostly fresh water, ocean life probably adapted as the salt levels increased.

5. How did plants survive a year of being flooded?

• The bible account does not indicate entire earth wasnt underwater for a year. After 150 days (about 5 months) the ark ran aground so there may well have been areas where the leaves of some tress were above water after a relatively short period. Dormant shoots with resting buds, dormant bulbs, tubers, corms and stolons would probably have survived in the flood waters, or been carried on floating masses or debris and Noah would likely have carried a variety of plants and seeds safely through the flood.

6. How could a dove return with an olive leaf?

• Given the right conditions plants wiĺ, sprout relatively quickly. The dove returned with a leaf 120 days (about 4 months) after the ark ran around which is certajnly sufficient for new plant life to emerge.

7. How could fossils have been sorted as thoroughly as we know them to exist in present rock strata if all sedimentary rock was deposited during the flood?

• The fossil record (of the emergence of life on earth) would logically date from preflood times.

8. The mountains were lower before the flood .... .

• The textbook Planet Earth—Glacier states: “Where the mountains of the world now tower to dizzy heights, oceans and plains once, millions of years ago, stretched out in flat monotony. . . . The movements of the continental plates cause the land both to rear up to heights where only the hardiest of animals and plants can survive and, at the other extreme, to plunge and lie in hidden splendor deep beneath the surface of the sea.

9. The atmosphere was a blanket of water before the flood and it never rained.

• The bible makes no such claim

10. The climate was more moderate before the flood....

• North Pole Once Was Tropical : That conclusion, based on first-of-their-kind core samples extracted from more than 1,000 feet below the Arctic Ocean floor, is contained in three studies published in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature. ..."Imagine a world where there are dense sequoia trees and cypress trees like in Florida that ring the Arctic Ocean," said Yale geology professor Mark Pagani, a study co-author. He said it was probably a tropical paradise, "but the mosquitoes were probably the size of your head."
  https://www.cbsnews.com/news/study-nort ... -tropical/

12. Unsupported ClaimThe continents were all together before the flood:

• 

JW



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[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to post 143 by JehovahsWitness]

Thank you for providing readers with a religionist perspective on these matters.

Some of your responses quote or are based upon the work of scientists.

Do you accept scientific work regarding the age of the Earth and the time references to events – or just cherry pick a few items that appear to fit the flood myth?

It is very naive to attempt to shoehorn scientific information relating to millions or tens of millions or hundreds of millions of years ago into tales of a flood that supposedly happened after humans developed organized civilizations – a few thousand years ago according to anthropologists (who actually study such things)

Let’s try to keep in mind the large difference between thousands and millions (Google if unfamiliar).

1. How were the animals gathered from around the world to go aboard the ark?
The bible doesn't say animals were "gathered from around the world" it simply says "[animals] kept going to Noah inside the ark, two by two, of every sort of flesh" Genesis 7:14

Genesis 7:2 Take with you seven pairs of all clean animals,[a] the male and his mate, and a pair of the animals that are not clean, the male and his mate, 3 and seven pairs of the birds of the heavens also, male and female, to keep their offspring alive on the face of all the earth. 4 For in seven days I will send rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and every living thing[c] that I have made I will blot out from the face of the ground.

Genesis 7:14 they and every beast, according to its kind, and all the livestock according to their kinds, and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, according to its kind, and every bird, according to its kind, every winged creature. 15 They went into the ark with Noah, two and two of all flesh in which there was the breath of life.

‘God’ was quoted as being rather specific that Noah was to take every kind of animal aboard.

Some kinds of animals do not live in the Middle East.

2. How were thousands or millions of animals fed and cared for on the ark?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 164#792164

State your case and support with links – rather than attempting to ‘debate by link’

How did Noah build the ark?
The same way the ancient "primitive people without known experience" built the pyramids. Note the ark was not of a particularly difficult design it was essentially just a large rectangle box. It was indeed colossal in size but given enough time, manpower and materials, there is no reason to deem it humanly impossible.

Of course. It is perfectly reasonable to claim that a 500 year old man took 100 years to build an ‘ark’ that is claimed to be FAR larger than the largest wooden ship (or box or raft) of any kind that was actually built.

4. How did fresh water and salt water fish survive the flood?
Scientists theorize that seawater wasn’t always salty; when the Earth’s oceans first formed the oceans were mostly fresh water, ocean life probably adapted as the salt levels increased.

WHEN did the oceans first form?

Did the adaption by ocean life to increasing salinity involve <shudder> evolution (genetic change through generations)?

5. How did plants survive a year of being flooded?
The bible account does not indicate entire earth wasnt underwater for a year. After 150 days (about 5 months) the ark ran aground so there may well have been areas where the leaves of some tress were above water after a relatively short period. Dormant shoots with resting buds, dormant bulbs, tubers, corms and stolons would probably have survived in the flood waters, or been carried on floating masses or debris and Noah would likely have carried a variety of plants and seeds safely through the flood.

Many tropical rainforests are at low elevation – but contain the worlds most diverse plant life (estimated to be 50% of all life on the planet.

“a tropical rainforest may have more than 480 tree species in a single hectare (2.5 acres). A single bush in the Amazon may have more species of ants than the entire British Isles�
https://rainforests.mongabay.com/0301.htm

Kindly show that tropic and polar animals made their way to the ‘ark’.

6. How could a dove return with an olive leaf?
Given the right conditions plants wiĺ, sprout relatively quickly. The dove returned with a leaf 120 days (about 4 months) after the ark ran around which is certajnly sufficient for new plant life to emerge.

Have you researched the ability of olive trees to endure months of flooding and produce new leaves soon thereafter – or are you just wining it?

7. How could fossils have been sorted as thoroughly as we know them to exist in present rock strata if all sedimentary rock was deposited during the flood?
The fossil record (of the emergence of life on earth) would logically date from preflood times

Thank you.

8, The mountains were lower before the flood .... .
The textbook Planet Earth—Glacier states: “Where the mountains of the world now tower to dizzy heights, oceans and plains once, millions of years ago, stretched out in flat monotony. . . . The movements of the continental plates cause the land both to rear up to heights where only the hardiest of animals and plants can survive and, at the other extreme, to plunge and lie in hidden splendor deep beneath the surface of the sea.�

Bold added.

Yes, millions of years ago continents may well have been lower.

HOW does that relate to the flood tale? Did the flood occur millions of years ago?

9. The atmosphere was a blanket of water before the flood and it never rained.
The bible makes no such claim

Genesis 1:6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.� 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.� And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

10. The climate was more moderate before the flood....
North Pole Once Was Tropical

When was that? How many millions of years ago?

Hint – it was 55 million years ago. news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5034026.stm

Was that when the flood occurred?

That conclusion, based on first-of-their-kind core samples extracted from more than 1,000 feet below the Arctic Ocean floor, is contained in three studies published in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature. ..."Imagine a world where there are dense sequoia trees and cypress trees like in Florida that ring the Arctic Ocean," said Yale geology professor Mark Pagani, a study co-author. He said it was probably a tropical paradise, "but the mosquitoes were probably the size of your head."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/study-nort ... -tropical/

How do conditions from millions of years ago support the flood tale?

12. Unsupported ClaimThe continents were all together before the flood:

That image depicts conditions as they may have existed about 200 million years ago.

The single continent (called Pangaea) is calculated to have broken into separate smaller continents 175 million years ago.

Does that fit with the flood tale? Were humans present then? Is that when the flood occurred?

[JehovahsWitness]

9. The atmosphere was a blanket of water before the flood and it never rained.
The bible makes no such claim

Genesis 1:6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.� 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.� And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

Why are you presenting this passage in counterarguement? There is no statement in the passage quoted that it never rained before the flood. In what way are you suggesting (if indeed that is the case) that this passage lends to such a conclusion?



JW

[JehovahsWitness]

.

2. How were thousands or millions of animals fed and cared for on the ark?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 164#792164

State your case and support with links – rather than attempting to ‘debate by link’

I did state my case, did you miss what I posted? Here is the link to what I wrote, in case you did.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 164#792164





JW

[sorrento]

How so many different animals supposedly reached the ark raises many questions. Let us just take one particular animal, the South American sloth. It's an animal that spends most of its life hanging upside down in trees. It can only crawl very slowly on land, as can be seen in the video clip, making it very vulnerable to predators. They are quite good swimmers, but even if one managed to crawl to the Atlantic I doubt if it could manage to swim across that big pond.
Of course, there's always, goddidit!

[Bust Nak]

If miracles are invoked to explain how the flood was literally true, this is no longer a debate and is no longer scientific it is pure theology and guesswork opposing the real world and science. Goddidit and miracles void any claim that reasoning, knowledge, experience, observation, measurement, validation have formed the basis of ideas, theories, or arguments presented.

Is that worth pointing out where the context is an apocalyptic world wide supernatural event? That ark had long sailed.

[Revelations won]

For what man knoweth the things of man but the spirit of man which is in him, even so, the things of God knoweth no man but the spirit of God.

I find it amusing to see the many speculations of man trying to explain the things of the great creator, based on man's limited scientific data.

Only when we gain a full understanding and acknowledgement that our creator is indeed the "master scientist" who understands any and all laws pertaining to his creations can we grasp his why's and how's of his mighty works.

For example, with our present research we base things on the "speed of light". How many might be very Shocked to soon discover that the "speed of light" is in fact a very slow speed"?

As one working in the wireless communication industry, I suspect that in the near future we may discover new technologies that will obsolete our present marvelous communication achievements.