"Jesus was in no way a Jew," Wllum

[Danmark]

William claims Jesus was not a Jew. His reasons appear faulty to me, but it may be worthy of debate.

Jesus was in no way a Jew.
He defied commandments.
He practiced and suggested blasphemy.
There is no divine impetus or scripture to suggest a Jewish mother makes you Jewish. It is a completely human convention and...

Deuteronomy 23:2 makes bastard-born people excluded from the assembly of God...

"No one born of a forbidden union may enter the assembly of the LORD. Even to the tenth generation, none of his descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD."


You may say that since God did the immaculating, [sic] that it was sanctioned, the issue is, so few Jews believed this, and OFFICIALLY he was the son of an unholy union between a Roman soldier and a naughty young woman, that you really have no basis at all to make the claim.

In fact, even if Jesus was the son of God, mom could have been a kangaroo, for all the difference it would make.

viewtopic.php?p=984119#984119

[Willum]

If you vote, back up your claim.
Noting, that, if his mom was a Jewess, that only makes him a Jew by human convention, not Judaic, or even consistently Jewish...

[OnceConvinced]

I always believed he was. Which was why they put "King of the Jews" on his cross. He was brought up Jewish and spent many hours studying in Jewish temples. He was even referred to as Rabbi once or twice in the gospels.

It was never in question as far as I was concerned.

We certainly can't say he was a Christian.

[WeSee]

[Replying to post 1 by Danmark]

Yes, Jesus was a Jew.

In common speech, the word "Jew" is used to refer to all of the physical and spiritual descendants of Jacob/Israel, as well as to the patriarchs Abraham and Isaac and their wives, and the word "Judaism" is used to refer to their beliefs. Technically, this usage is inaccurate, just as it is technically inaccurate to use the word "Indian" to refer to the original inhabitants of the Americas. However, this technically inaccurate usage is common both within the Jewish community and outside of it, and is therefore used throughout this site.

A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism.

It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox. In this sense, Judaism is more like a nationality than like other religions, and being Jewish is like a citizenship.

Pasted from <http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm>

[Danmark]

I always believed he was. Which was why they put "King of the Jews" on his cross. He was brought up Jewish and spent many hours studying in Jewish temples. He was even referred to as Rabbi once or twice in the gospels.

It was never in question as far as I was concerned.

We certainly can't say he was a Christian.

Yes it was never in question, except by Willum and even he now equivocates, changing his terms and saying he was not "Judaic" while conceding Jesus was a Jew by "human convention." Is there another way to define "Jew" or "Christian" except by "human convention?"

[liamconnor]

William claims Jesus was not a Jew. His reasons appear faulty to me, but it may be worthy of debate.

Jesus was in no way a Jew.
He defied commandments.
He practiced and suggested blasphemy.
There is no divine impetus or scripture to suggest a Jewish mother makes you Jewish. It is a completely human convention and...

Deuteronomy 23:2 makes bastard-born people excluded from the assembly of God...

"No one born of a forbidden union may enter the assembly of the LORD. Even to the tenth generation, none of his descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD."


You may say that since God did the immaculating, [sic] that it was sanctioned, the issue is, so few Jews believed this, and OFFICIALLY he was the son of an unholy union between a Roman soldier and a naughty young woman, that you really have no basis at all to make the claim.

In fact, even if Jesus was the son of God, mom could have been a kangaroo, for all the difference it would make.

viewtopic.php?p=984119#984119

The only relevant point here is the question of what one means by Jew. If by Jew one means only those who obeyed the Torah, well, Rabbinic material shows that there were disagreements as to what the Torah required. If descendancy from Abraham (i.e. genetics) is the criterion, well how could we know?

The next relevant point is this: DCR does not discriminate against any participants based on their mental health or mental abilities or age.

[Willum]

So this is fun, truth by democracy!

Anyway...

Riddle me this.
What is transferred by a mother being Jewish?
Culture? No.
Genetics? Yes.
Religion? No.
Diet? No.
Etc.? No.

So lets examine genetics.
If a mother isn't born Jewish, for example, converts during life, does she still carry on that Jewish gene?

Just how does this work?

It is a human convention, inconsistently applied.

Now, "Jew," the term, is from Middle French. Let me tell you, Jesus never heard of Middle French.

I am listening...

[Replying to post 3 by OnceConvinced]

They put "king of the Jews" to mock him.
Are Roman jokesters suddenly the arbiter of the Jews?
OC, I am surprised at you!

[Danmark]

To some being a Jew is a matter of genetics. There is a great weight of authority against this notion.

Maimonides set out 13 essential principles

1. Belief in the existence of the Creator, who is perfect in every manner of existence and is the Primary Cause of all that exists.

2. The belief in G‑d's absolute and unparalleled unity.

3. The belief in G‑d's non-corporeality, nor that He will be affected by any physical occurrences, such as movement, or rest, or dwelling.

4. The belief in G‑d's eternity.

5. The imperative to worship G‑d exclusively and no foreign false gods.

6. The belief that G‑d communicates with man through prophecy.

7. The belief in the primacy of the prophecy of Moses our teacher.

8. The belief in the divine origin of the Torah.

9. The belief in the immutability of the Torah.

10. The belief in G‑d's omniscience and providence.

11. The belief in divine reward and retribution.

12. The belief in the arrival of the Messiah and the messianic era.

13. The belief in the resurrection of the dead.

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_ ... -Faith.htm

But even these are disputed.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/articl ... -of-faith/

Additionally, Thomas Sheehan [among others] makes an excellent case that Jesus never claimed to be God or the 'Son of God' in a way the rest of us are not.
https://infidels.org/library/modern/tho ... rstcoming/

As I view the 13 principles I see none of them that conflict with what Jesus himself taught. The "Gospel of John" is of course a special case and is rightly set apart from the synoptics.
Charles Normann, our friend, and a Jew, frequently quoted
"The Torah is true, and some of it may even have happened." -- Rabbi William Gershon

To say Jesus was not a Jew requires one to both claim with certitude his mother was not a Jew AND that they have authority to decide who is and is not a Jew by their practice or teaching. Two very bold claims for which ZERO evidence has been presented.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 8 by Danmark]

And there we are.
Being Jewish, is often patalienear as well. It depends on the decade and who is counting.

So what else is there to say?

[Zzyzx]

.

The next relevant point is this: DCR does not discriminate against any participants based on their mental health or mental abilities or age.

How is that related to the topic?

It it is not, what is the intent?