Who sacrificed Jesus?

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Menotu
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Re: Who sacrificed Jesus?

Post #21

Post by Menotu »

[Replying to post 1 by marco]


What interested me in your last sentence was the 'take away the sins of many'. This seems to mean 'take away the sins of some, but not all'.
Wonder is that's a biblical typo/error of some sort? Semantics? Poor translation? Any way, it seems, if verbatim, the bible is wrong or selective.
Either way, it makes the bible seem unworthy at the very least, considering it's suppose to be the word of God and such.

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Re: Who sacrificed Jesus?

Post #22

Post by 1213 »

marco wrote: No, he was killed because he provoked….
By forgiving sins.
marco wrote:Why are we talking about the righteous when the sacrifice was for sinners?
Because by what Jesus did, people had chance to become righteous and have eternal life.
marco wrote:And why, given Christ's big gesture, are people still going to eternal punishment.
Because some people don’t reject sin and evil and don’t want to be righteous.

This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."
John 3:19-21
marco wrote: Did Christ have to make things so complicated?
What Jesus says is not complicated.

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Re: Who sacrificed Jesus?

Post #23

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Menotu wrote: ...'take away the sins of many'. This seems to mean 'take away the sins of some, but not all'.
Wonder is that's a biblical typo/error of some sort?

DOES JESUS SACRIFICE COVER EVERYONE'S SIN ?

There are those that believe that Christ's death atoned for the sins of every individual who has ever been born and that all humanity in its entirety, (ven Adam and Eve) will therefore be given everlasting life. They forget one of the most well known verses in the bible
JOHN 3:16 (NIV)

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
So while Jesus sacrifice opened the way for everyone that has ever lived to obtained everlasting life and be saved from eternal death and sin, only those that put faith in him will be thus saved.
To illustrate: Imagine everyone in a town was given winning tickets in a lottery, but of course they would each need to take the ticket to the lottery office and cash it in before they can access the cash. If some people fail to do so although everyone got a ticket only some get the prize.
Jesus sacrifice was a free gift to all mankind, every man woman and child that has ever lived, sadly some will fail to take the needed action to benefit from it.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS



How can the death of one man, cover for the sins of so many?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 910#909910


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LIFE, SIN and ...RANSOM

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INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
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Re: Who sacrificed Jesus?

Post #24

Post by Elijah John »

marco wrote: We learn in Hebrews that people die, and that only once. We also learn that somebody offered Christ as a sacrifice, like a bull or a pigeon, but I can't find who this officiating priest was. Can anyone help.
There was no one. Roman executioners were not Jewish Priests, and the cross is not an altar.

If believers in "the blood" want to play the Priestly game, hadn't they ought to play by Priestly rules? If Jesus was a blood-sacrifice for atonement, he would have had to have been sacrificed by a Priest on the altar. But here's another big problem, Judaism forbade human sacrifice.,

A martyrdom may indeed be a sacrifice for a good cause, and Jesus seems to have died for what he believed in, but that is far different than a theological, atoning blood sacrifice.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Post #25

Post by FWI »

marco wrote:Who sacrificed Jesus?


No one! The Christ wasn't sacrificed, he was murdered. Where, the rituals required for the sacrifices are clearly illustrated in the O.T. These rituals were not performed during the crucifixion of the Christ…We also know that God did not approve of human sacrifices, no matter what some may try to imply. Just as Elijah John states.
marco wrote:The other question is: by what theological device did Jesus "take away the sins of many"?


The Christ also didn't take away the sins of many or of the world! The taking away of the sins of humans are shown by a Holy Day called the Day of Atonement (Lev. 16). Which, records the atoning or cleansing for: the Holy Place, the tabernacle of meeting, the altar, the high priest and the people. So, as related to the people, there were two live goats brought before God, one as a scapegoat and another as a sin offering. The scapegoat would be "ritually," where the sins of the people were put upon and this goat would be sent into the wilderness, alive…The goat for the sin offering would be technically represented by those who had died and paid the final penalty for their own sins (Romans 6:23 and Ezekiel 18:19-20).
marco wrote:Did he "take away" the punishment due to sinners? Or did he cause God to forget that sins had actually been committed?


No, all sinners pay for their own sins, in one way or another. Yet, the ultimate penalty is death and no, the Christ did not cause God to forget that sins were committed (by humans) at the time of their death. However, when a human dies, their sins are paid for! But, they are still dead or cease to exist. This is where the Christ comes in…


Since, the Christ was without sin, he did not earn the death penalty. Thus, he could have demanded that he not die, physically…But, he didn't, because God's will is also his will. So, the Christ who had the power to request that legions of angels could be called upon to rescue him (Matthew 26:53). But, he did not do so. Hence, the death of the Christ was necessary, not because he sinned and not because he was a sacrifice for sins, but because he needed to be resurrected from the dead! And, according to the plan of God, the lack of action by the Christ (to save himself) also gave humans the "opportunity" to be resurrected (physically) as well. So, it is the resurrection of the Christ that is the key to eternal life, not his death.

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Re: Who sacrificed Jesus?

Post #26

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
marco wrote:
tam wrote:

"Take away" as in gain forgiveness for; in which case there would be no judgment for those who are in Christ; their sins are 'covered over' by Him (and His blood).
Well "take away" doesn't mean what you say but I suppose we can attach whatever meaning we want if we convert it into religious theory.



Perhaps more simple terms then:


Take away the sin means the sin is no more. Once a sin is forgiven, it is done, forgotten, and no more.




Peace again to you!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Who sacrificed Jesus?

Post #27

Post by myth-one.com »


marco wrote:. . . by what theological device did Jesus "take away the sins of many"?
The old and new testaments contain wills or covenants between God and man.

The inheritance received by heirs under either covenant is eternal life. Those who do not qualify simply perish.

To become an heir under the first covenant, one had to never sin. However, there was a fault in that first testament in that all mankind sinned!

Suppose some human could live a sinless life. He would not be under the death sentence. He could then offer his reward of everlasting life as a "gift" to free others from the wages of their sins imposed by the first covenant.

This is exactly what occurred when Jesus Christ came to earth as a human. He lived a sinless life and is an heir to everlasting life under the original covenant.

But how can only one everlasting life be gifted to many humans?

The rationalization is that since sin entered the world through one man Adam, God would allow salvation to also enter through one man's gift from Jesus.

Here is the "legalize" from the Bible:
romans 5 wrote:15 . . . For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
A new covenant was created to reflect this change.

Since Jesus made eternal life possible for us, the new requirement to attain everlasting life under the New Testament Covenant became a belief in Jesus Christ as our Savior and acceptance of His free gift.

Under the New Testament man came under grace and not our works to fulfill the laws or commandments of God:
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. (Romans 6:14)

We must now believe in Jesus Christ to inherit everlasting life. Upon creating a New Testament, the first covenant became the Old Testament:
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Hebrews 8:13)
That is the theological device by which Jesus "takes away the sins of many."

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Post #28

Post by Athetotheist »

Perhaps this will put things in perspective:

https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/ar ... igh-priest

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Post #29

Post by sorrento »

I think it would be more honest of Christians to say that Christ believed that by dying on the cross that he was taking the punishment in place of those who had committed wrongdoing. It would be like a father whose son had committed a violent crime saying that he would make a sacrifice by taking his son's place in prison.
In both cases, it would relieve the wrongdoer of having to suffer the punishment they deserved, but it would in no way take away the responsibility the person had in committing the wrongdoing in the first place.

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Post #30

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 23 by Elijah John]

Perhaps this will put things in perspective:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 048#801048


JW

Athetotheist wrote: Perhaps this will put things in perspective:

https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/ar ... igh-priest
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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