Does all NT instruction apply to Christians today?

[RRL]

Does all instruction given to Christians in the New Testament, unless noted as applying only to a specific group of people, apply to Christians today? Yes or no?

I'm including all instruction, regardless of whether it was from Jesus, Paul, John the Baptist, etc.

If the answer is no, which specific instruction would you say does NOT apply to Christians today?

[RRL]

Peace to you,

As to the rest above, you will note that Paul refers back to the Law which states a woman must be silent. But we are not under the Law, so why should that matter to us who are in Christ? It was Jewish women - under the law - who were not permitted to speak in the synagogues. (If you are a group of Jewish Christians in hiding from persecution for being Christian, it might be unwise to exercise all the freedoms that you have in Christ; at least in public.)

You are not under the law?

I am not under the law of the old covenant, no. That covenant (and its law) was only between Israel and God, and it was mediated by Moses.

A person cannot be held to the terms of a contract (which is what a covenant is) if they were never part of that contract.

I am in the new covenant, mediated by Christ. The law of the new covenant that is written upon the heart is love.

Where is the scripture that explicitly says that you nor any of the rest of The Most High's followers are no longer under the law?

Jesus said he came to uphold the law, not abolish it.

Christ (Jaheshua) said that He came to FULFILL the law... and that is what He did.

Let's look at Matthew 5:

Matthew 5:17-20: "17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

You are correct, he did say he came to fufill the law (and also the prophets). However, he goes on to say that not one bit of the will pass away, that to me sounds like the law still stands, and thus God's people are still under it. Further, he then says that whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same shall be called least in the kindom of Heaven, it could be argued he is referring to the instruction that he proceeds to give in Matthew 5-7, but since it immediately follows him saying not one bit of the Old Testament law shall pass away, I think it's reasonable to infer he was talking about people not following the Old Testament law.

I just don't see how you are going to sit there and try to argue you aren't under the law when Jesus clearly says not one bit of it shall pass away. And, also, he clearly says he did not come to abolish it, so that means he isn't doing away with it, which means you are still under it.

I think what the deal may be here, is that for you and others like you, the "We're not under the law anymore" defense is a convenient and easy escape from having to submit to difficult and/or absurd commands in the Old Testament.

now that Christ is here, we are under Him - His words, His teachings, His commands. Love your neighbor as yourself. Love God with your whole heart, mind and soul. Love also your enemies and pray for those who persecute you (so that we may be sons of our Father in heaven). And the new command that Christ gave: love one another as He has loved us.

And also, the Old Testament law, which Jesus clearly upheld in Matthew 5:17-20.

You could say the same about the other authors of the Bible, including the ones who wrote about Jesus. If we go by that, your entire belief system could be called into question.

My faith is based upon Christ, the living Christ, the Word of God who is alive and who speaks. Christ is the foundation upon whom my house (my faith) is built. Errors in the bible are not going to affect my faith. My Lord is the One who leads His sheep into all truth.

Ok, but where did your starting point for Jesus come from? Most likely, it came from the Bible. You don't even know if Jesus was a real person, and as I said, I could show you multiple issues in the Gospels that call into question the veracity of the claims about Jesus. With a broad anyalsis, it's questionable whether Jesus was even a real person, he may have been fabricated. If the gospel accounts cannot be trusted, where are you getting Jesus being your starting point from?

It's kind of arbitrary for you to say "Paul was a human and humans can make mistakes, but the humans who wrote about Jesus could not possibly have made mistakes or written any false information, including making up Jesus).

I have not said that.

Oh ok. I was under the impression you think the gospel accounts are flawless.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 30 by tam]

Please go back and quote where I EVER said that I "ignore Corinthians" because "it is too hard and evil for me to accept".

That would be Corinthians we are talking about.
You don't remain silent in church for some reason.

Anyway, you have dodged and avoided the subject, and haven't remained true to either Bible, (OK Jesus) or self.
You may now feel free to make any claims you like.
Since your only means of backing them up is some direct line to God or Jesus you won't explain, and since you can't answer direct questions, even were I to believe you talk to something, I will certainly not consider it is to any benign intelligence.

[RRL]

TCG, I see tumbleweed rolling through this town. I think we have a good idea what that means...And no, it isn't because the local mine ran out of gold 😄

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

As to the rest above, you will note that Paul refers back to the Law which states a woman must be silent. But we are not under the Law, so why should that matter to us who are in Christ? It was Jewish women - under the law - who were not permitted to speak in the synagogues. (If you are a group of Jewish Christians in hiding from persecution for being Christian, it might be unwise to exercise all the freedoms that you have in Christ; at least in public.)

You are not under the law?

I am not under the law of the old covenant, no. That covenant (and its law) was only between Israel and God, and it was mediated by Moses.

A person cannot be held to the terms of a contract (which is what a covenant is) if they were never part of that contract.

I am in the new covenant, mediated by Christ. The law of the new covenant that is written upon the heart is love.

Where is the scripture that explicitly says that you nor any of the rest of The Most High's followers are no longer under the law?

Jesus said he came to uphold the law, not abolish it.

Christ (Jaheshua) said that He came to FULFILL the law... and that is what He did.

Let's look at Matthew 5:

Matthew 5:17-20: "17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

You are correct, he did say he came to fulfill the law (and also the prophets). However, he goes on to say that not one bit of the will pass away, that to me sounds like the law still stands, and thus God's people are still under it.

This is also incorrect.

Christ does not just say that not one bit of the law will pass away; He said that not one bit will pass away UNTIL ALL IS FULFILLED.


Well, all was fulfilled in Christ. This is what He said He came to do (to fulfill); He already did it; it is finished.

See also from Luke:

"This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.�

And also from John,

"After this, [Jesus] knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst...

"When he had received the drink, He said, “It is finished.� With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit."



**

I just don't see how you are going to sit there and try to argue you aren't under the law when Jesus clearly says not one bit of it shall pass away. And, also, he clearly says he did not come to abolish it, so that means he isn't doing away with it, which means you are still under it.

I responded to this earlier, but I am going to focus on your word "still" here. A person cannot be "still" under something that they were never under to begin with. The only people who were ever under the law of Moses (the law of the old covenant) is Israel. Even the apostles understood that Gentiles were not obligated to obey the law of Moses, since that was between God and (physical) Israel, mediated by Moses.


So there can be no 'still' here.


In the new covenant we are under Christ, under grace (undeserved though it is), and the law that is written upon the heart is love (just as it would have been upon Abraham's heart, long before there was ever a written law that Israel needed due to hard-heartedness).

I think what the deal may be here, is that for you and others like you, the "We're not under the law anymore" defense is a convenient and easy escape from having to submit to difficult and/or absurd commands in the Old Testament.

You think incorrectly.

1 - a person cannot be held to the conditions of a contract that they never agreed to; and the contract with the law covenant was between (physical) Israel and God, mediated through Moses.


2 - Sacrifices were part of the law covenant as well, and as the spirit has reminded me, my Lord put an end to all that with the sacrifice of Himself. So we KNOW for a FACT that part law no longer applies - a "jot" has indeed been dropped - because that part of the law CANNOT apply. Even if there were a (physical) temple in which to perform sacrifices (no need because the true Temple is the Body of Christ, made of people) no Christian would be offering sacrifices of animals for forgiveness of sins; that would be throwing the sacrifice that Christ made back in His face, as if His blood was not enough, as if His sacrifice was not good enough.



3 - As stated, we are under Christ (if we are in the new covenant, if we are Christian). Christ gave us commands as well (and we are to listen to Him and keep His word, His teachings). So the accusation that we just don't want to follow the law fails; when we have a Master whose word we are to keep, and we are to act in accordance with love (the law of God).




I may address your other comments in another post.



Peace again to you,
your servant and slave of Christ,
tammy

[Willum]

[Replying to post 34 by tam]

Point of order.
Nothing can be shown or inferred to be fulfilled in Christ.
I am aware of nothing Christ fulfilled.
Please show how Christ did anything relevant to the real world.
That should be an easy one to demonstrate.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 30 by tam]

Please go back and quote where I EVER said that I "ignore Corinthians" because "it is too hard and evil for me to accept".

That would be Corinthians we are talking about.
You don't remain silent in church for some reason.

In other words, you admit that you falsely attributed words (and reasons) to me that I never said?

Anyway, you have dodged and avoided the subject,

Another false accusation.

I have directly responded to the subject and OP question.

and haven't remained true to either Bible, (OK Jesus) or self.

I freely admit that I am not true to "Willum's personal version of 'Jesus'". But I am also not obligated to be so.

Please give an example of where I have not been true to Christ, or to myself.

Since your only means of backing them up is some direct line to God or Jesus you won't explain,

I have indeed shared about how Christ speaks and that He said His sheep would listen to His voice. Even started a thread on the matter so as to avoid derailing threads:

viewtopic.php?t=28577






Peace again to you,
- a slave of Christ,
tammy