Can humans create orginal thoughts out of nothing?

[Celsus]

Can humans create orginal thoughts out of nothing?

We seem to extrapolate from things we've seen and experienced.

Could you give an example of an original thought, created out of nothing and totally independent from any external input?

[Celsus]

I agree with you that the invention of the light bulb was derived in part from already known ideas. Based on your point, I now understand that having previous experiences/experiments and ideas involved that that alone would constitute as having external input as playing a role, and therefore not *totally* independent from external input.

Could you give an example of an idea or concepts that's totally independent from external input then?

[Angel]

I agree with you that the invention of the light bulb was derived in part from already known ideas. Based on your point, I now understand that having previous experiences/experiments and ideas involved that that alone would constitute as having external input as playing a role, and therefore not *totally* independent from external input.

Could you give an example of an idea or concepts that's totally independent from external input then?

My last post, post #10, answers your question.

I'm also wondering, if you're a strict naturalist or atheist, wouldn't you have to consider some aspects of myth as being contrived from nothing or no basis in reality. For example, demons, immaterial beings or spirits, etc. A theist would likely say that we can and some have had external input or experiences of these beings, but assuming that you're an atheist, and also, don't accept these things as real and therefore, would never have an external input. So where would you say they came from if not from something independent of external input?

[McCulloch]

I'm also wondering, if you're a strict naturalist or atheist, wouldn't you have to consider some aspects of myth as being contrived from nothing or no basis in reality. For example, demons, immaterial beings or spirits, etc. A theist would likely say that we can and some have had external input or experiences of these beings, but assuming that you're an atheist, and also, don't accept these things as real and therefore, would never have an external input. So where would you say they came from if not from something independent of external input?

Humans have a remarkable ability to attribute intentionality. This mental ability has proven very very useful to us, even when such intentionality is absurd. The water in the river is trying to get to the sea.

"Here is how it works: first you decide to treat the object whose behavior is to be predicted as a rational agent; then you figure out what beliefs that agent ought to have, given its place in the world and its purpose. Then you figure out what desires it ought to have, on the same considerations, and finally you predict that this rational agent will act to further its goals in the light of its beliefs. A little practical reasoning from the chosen set of beliefs and desires will in most instances yield a decision about what the agent ought to do; that is what you predict the agent will do."

It is a rather short jump from there to demons and spirits.

[Celsus]

I agree with you that the invention of the light bulb was derived in part from already known ideas. Based on your point, I now understand that having previous experiences/experiments and ideas involved that that alone would constitute as having external input as playing a role, and therefore not *totally* independent from external input.

Could you give an example of an idea or concepts that's totally independent from external input then?

My last post, post #10, answers your question.

Where ... ? I'm sorry but I didn't get it then.

I'm also wondering, if you're a strict naturalist or atheist, wouldn't you have to consider some aspects of myth as being contrived from nothing or no basis in reality. For example, demons, immaterial beings or spirits, etc. A theist would likely say that we can and some have had external input or experiences of these beings, but assuming that you're an atheist, and also, don't accept these things as real and therefore, would never have an external input. So where would you say they came from if not from something independent of external input?

Demons, spirits, etc have developed when superstitious people thought they had seen the dead, etc when actually they might have seen shadows, felt a wind, etc. The concept of an disembodied soul helped too. Also if you can imagine 'visible' then you are also able to imagine the opposite 'not visible'.

[Angel]

Could you give an example of an idea or concepts that's totally independent from external input then?

I don't have any examples.

I'm also wondering, if you're a strict naturalist or atheist, wouldn't you have to consider some aspects of myth as being contrived from nothing or no basis in reality. For example, demons, immaterial beings or spirits, etc. A theist would likely say that we can and some have had external input or experiences of these beings, but assuming that you're an atheist, and also, don't accept these things as real and therefore, would never have an external input. So where would you say they came from if not from something independent of external input?

Demons, spirits, etc have developed when superstitious people thought they had seen the dead, etc when actually they might have seen shadows, felt a wind, etc. The concept of an disembodied soul helped too. Also if you can imagine 'visible' then you are also able to imagine the opposite 'not visible'.

Fair enough.

[Celsus]

I don't have any examples.

So why did you say: "Based on your point, I now understand that having previous experiences/experiments and ideas involved that that alone would constitute as having external input as playing a role, and therefore not *totally* independent from external input"

Why assume that one can have ideas that are TOTALLY independent from external input?

[Cathar1950]

I'm also wondering, if you're a strict naturalist or atheist, wouldn't you have to consider some aspects of myth as being contrived from nothing or no basis in reality. For example, demons, immaterial beings or spirits, etc. A theist would likely say that we can and some have had external input or experiences of these beings, but assuming that you're an atheist, and also, don't accept these things as real and therefore, would never have an external input. So where would you say they came from if not from something independent of external input?

Humans have a remarkable ability to attribute intentionality. This mental ability has proven very very useful to us, even when such intentionality is absurd. The water in the river is trying to get to the sea.

"Here is how it works: first you decide to treat the object whose behavior is to be predicted as a rational agent; then you figure out what beliefs that agent ought to have, given its place in the world and its purpose. Then you figure out what desires it ought to have, on the same considerations, and finally you predict that this rational agent will act to further its goals in the light of its beliefs. A little practical reasoning from the chosen set of beliefs and desires will in most instances yield a decision about what the agent ought to do; that is what you predict the agent will do."

It is a rather short jump from there to demons and spirits.

Robert Write in his book "The Evolution of God" explains how we humans have evolved in groups that use language and culture. Humans have evolved interpreting the motives of others and we end up looking for the motives of other things and creatures. We also evolved in a world were we interact and have evolved meanings and the biology to make the world we live in useful.

[Angel]

I don't have any examples.

So why did you say: "Based on your point, I now understand that having previous experiences/experiments and ideas involved that that alone would constitute as having external input as playing a role, and therefore not *totally* independent from external input"

Why assume that one can have ideas that are TOTALLY independent from external input?

Where did I assume this in the statement you're referring to? I clearly mentioned the word "not".

From my post, post #10, I wrote:

Based on your point, I now understand that having previous experiences/experiments and ideas involved that that alone would constitute as having external input as playing a role, and therefore not *totally* independent from external input.

[Celsus]

Angel:

I'm a bit confused now ... so are you saying that people can have thoughts or ideas that are independent from outside stimuli or not?

[Angel]

Angel:

I'm a bit confused now ... so are you saying that people can have thoughts or ideas that are independent from outside stimuli or not?

I've explained this in posts 10 and 15. Just to reiterate, I do not believe someone can come up with a thought that is independent of external experiences.

The only new point made was from from post #9 and 10, where we both agreed that we can still come up with original thoughts but they'd still be extracted or stemming from prior experiences.