New research shows that homosexuality is an advantage

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Scotracer
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New research shows that homosexuality is an advantage

Post #1

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Here's two papers on homosexuality and how it ties in with evolution. Up until now it had been a mystery how homosexuality had still been evident in a population since it appeared to be detrimental to fertility.
New evidence of genetic factors influencing sexual orientation in men: female fecundity increase in the maternal line.

There is a long-standing debate on the role of genetic factors influencing homosexuality because the presence of these factors contradicts the Darwinian prediction according to which natural selection should progressively eliminate the factors that reduce individual fecundity and fitness. Recently, however, Camperio Ciani, Corna, and Capiluppi (Proceedings of the Royal Society of London, Series B: Biological Sciences, 271, 2217-2221, 2004), comparing the family trees of homosexuals with heterosexuals, reported a significant increase in fecundity in the females related to the homosexual probands from the maternal line but not in those related from the paternal one. This suggested that genetic factors that are partly linked to the X-chromosome and that influence homosexual orientation in males are not selected against because they increase fecundity in female carriers, thus offering a solution to the Darwinian paradox and an explanation of why natural selection does not progressively eliminate homosexuals. Since then, new data have emerged suggesting not only an increase in maternal fecundity but also larger paternal family sizes for homosexuals. These results are partly conflicting and indicate the need for a replication on a wider sample with a larger geographic distribution. This study examined the family trees of 250 male probands, of which 152 were homosexuals. The results confirmed the study of Camperio Ciani et al. (2004). We observed a significant fecundity increase even in primiparous mothers, which was not evident in the previous study. No evidence of increased paternal fecundity was found; thus, our data confirmed a sexually antagonistic inheritance partly linked to the X-chromosome that promotes fecundity in females and a homosexual sexual orientation in males.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18561014
A population-genetic model indicates that if there is a gene responsible for homosexual behaviour it can readily spread in populations. The model also predicts widespread bisexuality in humans.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 5158b.html

The first shows that it is evolutionary advantageous for a society to have homosexuals and the 2nd gives credence to the "gay gene" hypothesis. In light of these two things, can religions continue to accuse homosexuality of being unnatural and/or morally wrong? And how should this research affect the socio-political nature of the debate over equal rights?
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Post #11

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Scotracer wrote:
I'd love you to demonstrate this given that the evidence is against your position in this thread...
It's a second hand account, but one of my father's friends has an identical twin brother who is gay, while he straight.

I don't believe it's genetic, but I do believe it's biological.

Also, advantageous to society does nothing in evolutionary terms if you can't reproduce. They'd still disappear. In fact, homosexuals can never pass on their genes, which means that something else causes them to be gay. It could, theoretically, be a gene or set of genes that are recessive, in which case they continue to exist because they they aren't showing. I don't know, I'm not a biologist and I haven't researched the topic, but I do know that homosexuality could not have evolved directly because homosexuals do not have offsprings. It's more likely a byproduct of something else.

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Post #12

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From Post 11:
thatoneguy wrote: It's a second hand account, but one of my father's friends has an identical twin brother who is gay, while he straight.

I don't believe it's genetic, but I do believe it's biological.
I'd amend my previous genetic references to biological, as I agree it more accurately reflects my position, while containing the genetic argument.
thatoneguy wrote: Also, advantageous to society does nothing in evolutionary terms if you can't reproduce. They'd still disappear. In fact, homosexuals can never pass on their genes, which means that something else causes them to be gay.
This doesn't take into account those homosexuals who actually do reproduce.
thatoneguy wrote: It could, theoretically, be a gene or set of genes that are recessive, in which case they continue to exist because they they aren't showing. I don't know, I'm not a biologist and I haven't researched the topic, but I do know that homosexuality could not have evolved directly because homosexuals do not have offsprings.
Again, some homosexuals actually do reproduce.

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Post #13

Post by Scotracer »

thatoneguy wrote:
Scotracer wrote:
I'd love you to demonstrate this given that the evidence is against your position in this thread...
It's a second hand account, but one of my father's friends has an identical twin brother who is gay, while he straight.

I don't believe it's genetic, but I do believe it's biological.

Also, advantageous to society does nothing in evolutionary terms if you can't reproduce. They'd still disappear. In fact, homosexuals can never pass on their genes, which means that something else causes them to be gay. It could, theoretically, be a gene or set of genes that are recessive, in which case they continue to exist because they they aren't showing. I don't know, I'm not a biologist and I haven't researched the topic, but I do know that homosexuality could not have evolved directly because homosexuals do not have offsprings. It's more likely a byproduct of something else.
Thank you for the example. What you say is actually stated in the abstract for the first paper:
This suggested that genetic factors that are partly linked to the X-chromosome and that influence homosexual orientation in males are not selected against because they increase fecundity in female carriers, thus offering a solution to the Darwinian paradox and an explanation of why natural selection does not progressively eliminate homosexuals.
It's a "side-effect" of a gene that helps female offsprings.
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Post #14

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thatoneguy wrote:
Also, advantageous to society does nothing in evolutionary terms if you can't reproduce. They'd still disappear. In fact, homosexuals can never pass on their genes, which means that something else causes them to be gay. It could, theoretically, be a gene or set of genes that are recessive, in which case they continue to exist because they they aren't showing. I don't know, I'm not a biologist and I haven't researched the topic, but I do know that homosexuality could not have evolved directly because homosexuals do not have offsprings. It's more likely a byproduct of something else.
Remember, family have similar genes.

Look at colonial insects. Only the queen reproduces. All the workers are sisters. Why would they work so hard, if they cant reproduce? Because their genes are still being passed on. This is the basis of dawkins "Selfish gene" hypothesis. We dont do whats best for us, but for our genes.

Take another example. You and 3 siblings are out for a hike and a bear comes out. It is beneficial for you to sacrifice yourself for your 3 siblings. After all, each one has 50% of your genes, so saving the life of just 2 is enough to make the act null, while 3 makes it beneficial (150%). Many observation in nature have been made to validate this this mathematical model.

Its all about the genome baby.

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Post #15

Post by thatoneguy »

nygreenguy wrote:
thatoneguy wrote:
Also, advantageous to society does nothing in evolutionary terms if you can't reproduce. They'd still disappear. In fact, homosexuals can never pass on their genes, which means that something else causes them to be gay. It could, theoretically, be a gene or set of genes that are recessive, in which case they continue to exist because they they aren't showing. I don't know, I'm not a biologist and I haven't researched the topic, but I do know that homosexuality could not have evolved directly because homosexuals do not have offsprings. It's more likely a byproduct of something else.
Remember, family have similar genes.

Look at colonial insects. Only the queen reproduces. All the workers are sisters. Why would they work so hard, if they cant reproduce? Because their genes are still being passed on. This is the basis of dawkins "Selfish gene" hypothesis. We dont do whats best for us, but for our genes.

Take another example. You and 3 siblings are out for a hike and a bear comes out. It is beneficial for you to sacrifice yourself for your 3 siblings. After all, each one has 50% of your genes, so saving the life of just 2 is enough to make the act null, while 3 makes it beneficial (150%). Many observation in nature have been made to validate this this mathematical model.

Its all about the genome baby.
yeah, I understood that. I think my statements were more blanket and I was jsut having a hard time articulating.

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Post #16

Post by thatoneguy »

joeyknuccione wrote:From Post 11:
thatoneguy wrote: It's a second hand account, but one of my father's friends has an identical twin brother who is gay, while he straight.

I don't believe it's genetic, but I do believe it's biological.
I'd amend my previous genetic references to biological, as I agree it more accurately reflects my position, while containing the genetic argument.
thatoneguy wrote: Also, advantageous to society does nothing in evolutionary terms if you can't reproduce. They'd still disappear. In fact, homosexuals can never pass on their genes, which means that something else causes them to be gay.
This doesn't take into account those homosexuals who actually do reproduce.
thatoneguy wrote: It could, theoretically, be a gene or set of genes that are recessive, in which case they continue to exist because they they aren't showing. I don't know, I'm not a biologist and I haven't researched the topic, but I do know that homosexuality could not have evolved directly because homosexuals do not have offsprings.
Again, some homosexuals actually do reproduce.
Some do, but less than non-homosexual and so one would expect them to fade away if they were not a product of something else.

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Post #17

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He's saying homosexuals cannot reproduce because two dudes or two chicks cannot have a child together. Its a dead argument.

If gays had a gene, so would pediphiles, rapists, sodomists, sexual predators. And actually within the gay community, all of these things exist.

Gays are sexual predators, gays are sodomists, gays are rapists, and pedophiles. So by your definition, none of this should be punished and they should all have extra rights.

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Post #18

Post by JoeyKnothead »

xcept wrote:He's saying homosexuals cannot reproduce because two dudes or two chicks cannot have a child together. Its a dead argument.

If gays had a gene, so would pediphiles, rapists, sodomists, sexual predators. And actually within the gay community, all of these things exist.

Gays are sexual predators, gays are sodomists, gays are rapists, and pedophiles. So by your definition, none of this should be punished and they should all have extra rights.
Wow.

On behalf of all humanity I apologize for xcept's post here. Whether it is ill informed, or ill presented, it is reprehensible, and sad to know some folks think like this, or would articulate their position in such a vile fashion.

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Post #19

Post by xcept »

joeyknuccione wrote:
xcept wrote:He's saying homosexuals cannot reproduce because two dudes or two chicks cannot have a child together. Its a dead argument.

If gays had a gene, so would pediphiles, rapists, sodomists, sexual predators. And actually within the gay community, all of these things exist.

Gays are sexual predators, gays are sodomists, gays are rapists, and pedophiles. So by your definition, none of this should be punished and they should all have extra rights.
Wow.

On behalf of all humanity I apologize for xcept's post here. Whether it is ill informed, or ill presented, it is reprehensible, and sad to know some folks think like this, or would articulate their position in such a vile fashion.
hey thanks! just to clarify, I needed the word "some" in front of the word gay... as in some gays are .... not all gays. However if you know anything about sexual perversions and physical lusts, the same with any other addiction, you will need more and more twisted things to become satisfied. The body and mind build tolerances and become numbed and therefore the addict has to push the envelope further each time.

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Post #20

Post by Scotracer »

xcept wrote:
joeyknuccione wrote:
xcept wrote:He's saying homosexuals cannot reproduce because two dudes or two chicks cannot have a child together. Its a dead argument.

If gays had a gene, so would pediphiles, rapists, sodomists, sexual predators. And actually within the gay community, all of these things exist.

Gays are sexual predators, gays are sodomists, gays are rapists, and pedophiles. So by your definition, none of this should be punished and they should all have extra rights.
Wow.

On behalf of all humanity I apologize for xcept's post here. Whether it is ill informed, or ill presented, it is reprehensible, and sad to know some folks think like this, or would articulate their position in such a vile fashion.
hey thanks! just to clarify, I needed the word "some" in front of the word gay... as in some gays are .... not all gays. However if you know anything about sexual perversions and physical lusts, the same with any other addiction, you will need more and more twisted things to become satisfied. The body and mind build tolerances and become numbed and therefore the addict has to push the envelope further each time.
Your "argument" works for straight people to y'know. Some people are paedophiles. So what? It's totally irrelevant to this discussion.
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