Evolving perfection. Do I understand God. Are we all perfect

[Greatest I Am]

Evolving perfection. Do I understand God. Are we all perfect?

In my search for God, I began as a non believer. That being said, I was still driven to reason with believers to see if they were on the right road to knowing God.

After about 36 years, I gave up on arguments and discussions of God with believers because they could not deal with my objections as to why their God was less than perfect.

I basically began to have internal discussions with myself because in most cases I could reconcile may own points for and against God better than believer could. Kind of a strange position for sure as a non believer but I created a paradigm or world view from a starting point that God had to be and that if there was a God at all, all that was had to be perfect.
No self respecting God would have it otherwise.

To make this paradigm work, I had to reconcile the existence of evil and the bad things that I saw around me as well. Not an easy task but I did it.

I read a number of Bibles and Holy books while I was seeking God and found some wisdom and knowledge within these works and have a grudging respect for all of them while at the same time, not reading them literally. In the case of the Bible, it is obvious that it should not be read literally. How can one do so when it begins with talking animals and ends with a seven headed monster. God would not use impossible and silly props.

Bibles have to be judged on the moral position they take or show.

Since the Christian Bible shows a distinct lack of justice or morals in dealing with women, Gays and slaves, there is enough ambiguity and injustice to discard it as a literal document and even perhaps as a moral one.

It may not have been 3000 years ago but it is certainly immoral by today's standards.

It did help to lead me to God but then I do not read it literally or believe it's characters to be real. They are and were always mean to be archetypes.


There are some passages that can and should be read literally because they apply to the reality that I now know exists for us all.

For example.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

John 8:7
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

At about that time, after my paradigm seemed to cover all the bases, I forced my apotheosis and found God.
He confirmed my views and urged me to now think more demographically.

The pleasure and pain of the passing grade from the greatest teacher were worth all the years of mental toil.
Then the toil really began. That being, trying to convince others, with word alone, that the God I found is real.

There is evidence for the reality of God. This evidence you have to recognize and I cannot make you see it. You have to recognize it for yourself and I am pleased to point it out to you. The fist sign of God is all around us. Perfection. If you can get even a glimmer of it then we can reason together. If all you see is imperfection, just because there is evil and sin in the mix, then I cannot help with your apotheosis or rapprochement to God.

I know this sounds arrogant and brash but I cannot help that. I do have some arrogance now thanks to my apotheosis. Who could not be after touching the mind of God?

If you have found your own God in some book or Bible then enjoy Him. If you have doubts then I invite you to look at the God I found to see if some of your doubts can be assuaged.

When born, we can say that you were as perfect as nature and evolution could produce with the DNA at hand. You may or may not had had flaws but this would not negate the fact that nature and evolution did the best it could and that you were therefore as perfect as you could be. From that great beginning, you evolved your perfection to a higher state over time and that that path is constant till your death.

Genesis 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Corinthians 3:23
And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.


John 10:34
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

My question for you then is this.

Do you recognize that you are as perfect as you can be today, while always moving to a more perfect state over time?

Regards
DL

[Flail]

Yes...as human beings we are perfectly ignorant in many ways, though always evolving..always searching...and as imperfect beings, it is a shame that some of us delude ourselves into thinking we know Gods.

[Greatest I Am]

Yes...as human beings we are perfectly ignorant in many ways, though always evolving..always searching...and as imperfect beings, it is a shame that some of us delude ourselves into thinking we know Gods.

Thanks for this.

Regards
DL

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 10:

Arguments about perfection or imperfection are based solely on our human understanding, and throwing a god into the mix solves nothing unless one can show that god actually exists, and has acted to create a given state.

I can no more do that than people who have tried for 6000 years.
That is why I wanted your view of our natural state, given by God or not.

And I pointed out that regardless of one's opinion on a "natural state", there's no way we can tie such back to a god. As you propose a god is involved, I ask you to show you speak truth.

I see perfection at work. You do not.
Darwin did find evolving perfection.

Relies on one's opinion of what constitutes perfection. There are blind spots in the human eye, hardly a case of perfection.

I ignored the rest of your other post because there was no place to go with a reply.
If you think that there was more there than I saw, please restate.

I saw plenty of claims based on bible verses. That you choose to ignore challenges to these biblical claims indicates you have no way to confirm they are true.

A common theme among some within these forums is to make claims, then suddenly ignore or refuse to respond to challenges to claims put forth at least ostensibly as evidence for one's claims.

You say the following claims should be taken literally, and I ask you to offer some means to verify these claims are truth...

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

1. God is a rock? What kind of rock? Granite? Shale? Obsidian? Gneiss? What kind of rock?

This rock's work is "perfect". Please define how you're using the term perfect, because I see much imperfection in the world around me. Have you ever seen a rock actually perform work?

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

These are all subjective values, so any literal read is useless.

2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2. This Lord has promised something.
3. This Lord is long suffering.
4. This Lord wants none to perish
5. This Lord wants all to repent

If these are literal claims, then surely you can show this Lord possesses these attributes.

[Greatest I Am]

From Post 10:

Arguments about perfection or imperfection are based solely on our human understanding, and throwing a god into the mix solves nothing unless one can show that god actually exists, and has acted to create a given state.

I can no more do that than people who have tried for 6000 years.
That is why I wanted your view of our natural state, given by God or not.

And I pointed out that regardless of one's opinion on a "natural state", there's no way we can tie such back to a god. As you propose a god is involved, I ask you to show you speak truth.

How I see God. In a nut shell.

If there ever was a miracle working God, he either was absorbed or killed by the big bang.
We cannot know.
I do not believe that this God exists but do believe, thanks to my apotheosis, that our only God is a cosmic consciousness.

There is no interference from any God in the affairs of man. The only exemption to this rule is if the seeker makes contact. Then the only interference is at the thinking level.

We are basically on our own.

This does not take away the fact that I see evolution as a perfect process. After all, it allowed for us to be born and thrive.

Physicists say that if any of the parameters, numbers, in the outside universe, were to be different then man would not be here to observe anything. I bring this same conclusion to evolution. If it were anything different than what we have, we would not be here to see it.

We are therefore in a perfect environment for us.

I see perfection at work. You do not.
Darwin did find evolving perfection.

Relies on one's opinion of what constitutes perfection. There are blind spots in the human eye, hardly a case of perfection.

As you see it.
As I see it, evolution is doing the best it can with the DNA at hand. This to me is evolving perfection.

I ignored the rest of your other post because there was no place to go with a reply.
If you think that there was more there than I saw, please restate.

I saw plenty of claims based on bible verses. That you choose to ignore challenges to these biblical claims indicates you have no way to confirm they are true.

A common theme among some within these forums is to make claims, then suddenly ignore or refuse to respond to challenges to claims put forth at least ostensibly as evidence for one's claims.

You say the following claims should be taken literally, and I ask you to offer some means to verify these claims are truth...

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

To me, past work, not present interference.

1. God is a rock? What kind of rock? Granite? Shale? Obsidian? Gneiss? What kind of rock?

Come on, you are not stupid.

This rock's work is "perfect". Please define how you're using the term perfect, because I see much imperfection in the world around me. Have you ever seen a rock actually perform work?

McCulock was kind enough to write this.

In the American language, as opposed to the English language, perfect does not necessarily mean excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement; entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings or unqualified; absolute. In American, there can be degrees of perfection.

The Preamble to the United States Constitution wrote:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union ...


Jesse Jackson, Jr. wrote a book, A More Perfect Union: Advancing New American Rights.
"A More Perfect Union" is the name of a speech delivered by the Senator for Illinois, Barack Obama () on March 18, 2008 in the course of the contest for the 2008 Democratic Party presidential nomination.
Scott Mutter, an American photographer, has a gallery called, A More Perfect World.
Cynthia Nolan, at the annual meeting of the International Studies Association, San Diego, California, USA on Mar 22, 2006 presented a paper entitled "More Perfect Oversight: Intelligence Oversight and Reform".

It explains my use quite well.

As to the imperfections you see around us, I would point you to how evolution works. It produces variations through, basically, errors. Most of these imperfections die out but any that contribute to the organism are passed on and hopefully becomes the best that that organism can be for it's environment.

Take the errors out of evolution and we are gone or would have never developed.
Not good.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

These are all subjective values, so any literal read is useless.

I will give you that. The only reason I included it was for believers who say that all of God's works are perfect and yet we as His works, all turn bad. A stupid view in my estimation.

2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2. This Lord has promised something.
3. This Lord is long suffering.
4. This Lord wants none to perish
5. This Lord wants all to repent

If these are literal claims, then surely you can show this Lord possesses these attributes.

I spoke to what God is and is not above.

Again, I used these to draw the believers to discussion. This is a religious forum after all.

Your # 5
This is pure logic and should be true for man or God.

As a parent, God, or just plain human, none of us like to see people make errors. We want then to recognize them and repent, learn from their mistakes and try to not do them again.

Your 2 3 and 4 are purely for debate with believers.
Pointless to go into it with you as you do not believe.

This is why I initially tried to steer you to the more earthly realm of evolution.

I see the Bible as the best guess of the ancients as to what they though they had learned of God to that point in time with a good dose of social manipulation and control thrown in for the tyrant Constantine. After all he paid for it ass a tool to do just that.

Some of what they wrote makes logical sense and I do not mind using these for debate.

Regards
DL

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 14:

Greatest, I think I agree with your sentiment, but still disagree on the particulars and claims used to get at that sentiment. I can say my life and the world are "perfect", but I also must concede there is much that is imperfect. I just don't see where any of it can be shown to be the work of a god or gods - perfect or not.

I spoke to what God is and is not above.

While doing nothing to show the god actually exists or directly impacts the world around us. If we perceive perfection, that's really all we've done, and that perception is not evidence of a god's involvement.

We can define our gods as we like, the hard part is showing the definition reflects reality.

Again, I used these to draw the believers to discussion. This is a religious forum after all.

So then you shoulda posted in the subforums where atheists aren't allowed to question the facts.

Your # 5
This is pure logic and should be true for man or God.

What's the logic in claiming a god has an opinion when you can't show that god even exists?

As a parent, God, or just plain human, none of us like to see people make errors. We want then to recognize them and repent, learn from their mistakes and try to not do them again.

Can you show a god wants us to repent for our errors?

You make claims and offer nothing by way of evidence. The wants of humans can't be shown to be the wants of gods.

Your 2 3 and 4 are purely for debate with believers.
Pointless to go into it with you as you do not believe.

I'm reporting your post as a violation of forum rules. You made claims, you're expected to support them (or retract).

If you only seek dialog with fellow believers there are subforums for just that.

This is why I initially tried to steer you to the more earthly realm of evolution.

I saw it as an attempt to dodge responsibility for your claims.

I see the Bible as the best guess of the ancients as to what they though they had learned of God to that point in time with a good dose of social manipulation and control thrown in for the tyrant Constantine. After all he paid for it ass a tool to do just that.

Yet you quote the Bible in reference to your God claims.

Some of what they wrote makes logical sense and I do not mind using these for debate.

Unless you're challenged, then you say you won't debate.

[Greatest I Am]

From Post 14:

Greatest, I think I agree with your sentiment, but still disagree on the particulars and claims used to get at that sentiment. I can say my life and the world are "perfect", but I also must concede there is much that is imperfect. I just don't see where any of it can be shown to be the work of a god or gods - perfect or not.

Neither can I.
I think the ancients just could not or did not know what to attribute the perfection that they saw to. they only had God at that time to give the credit to. I do not. I give credit to nature and evolution. If it was started by a, now absentee god, well and good. If not, I don't care.

I spoke to what God is and is not above.

While doing nothing to show the god actually exists or directly impacts the world around us. If we perceive perfection, that's really all we've done, and that perception is not evidence of a god's involvement.

I agree.

We can define our gods as we like, the hard part is showing the definition reflects reality.

Again, I used these to draw the believers to discussion. This is a religious forum after all.

So then you shoulda posted in the subforums where atheists aren't allowed to question the facts.

That would be no fun at all.

Your # 5
This is pure logic and should be true for man or God.

What's the logic in claiming a god has an opinion when you can't show that god even exists?

In this case, if God, non existant or otherwise, does not agree with me, then He is a dick.

As a parent, God, or just plain human, none of us like to see people make errors. We want then to recognize them and repent, learn from their mistakes and try to not do them again.

Can you show a god wants us to repent for our errors?

No. Other than quoting scripture to that effect.

You make claims and offer nothing by way of evidence. The wants of humans can't be shown to be the wants of gods.

Certainly they can since God has never said anything that was not written or said by man.
The Bible is man made so I can assume that the wants expresed there come from nan.

Your 2 3 and 4 are purely for debate with believers.
Pointless to go into it with you as you do not believe.

I'm reporting your post as a violation of forum rules. You made claims, you're expected to support them (or retract).

If you only seek dialog with fellow believers there are subforums for just that.

Hey, do what you like and if in the wrong spot I bow to the moderators decision.

This is why I initially tried to steer you to the more earthly realm of evolution.

I saw it as an attempt to dodge responsibility for your claims.

Not at all. I knew that you were not a believer.
Better that than a literalist Christian BTW.

I see the Bible as the best guess of the ancients as to what they though they had learned of God to that point in time with a good dose of social manipulation and control thrown in for the tyrant Constantine. After all he paid for it ass a tool to do just that.

Yet you quote the Bible in reference to your God claims.

Where T F else am I supposed to get references to God?

Some of what they wrote makes logical sense and I do not mind using these for debate.

Unless you're challenged, then you say you won't debate.

Have I not answered your questions?

Regards
DL

[micatala]

Moderator Action


Based both on the nature of the question posed in the OP and the discussion occurring so far, I am moving this thread to the Questions About Belief subforum.

[Choir Loft]

Evolving perfection. Do I understand God. Are we all perfect?

In my search for God, I began as a non believer. That being said, I was still driven to reason with believers to see if they were on the right road to knowing God.

After about 36 years, I gave up on arguments and discussions of God with believers because they could not deal with my objections as to why their God was less than perfect.

I basically began to have internal discussions with myself because in most cases I could reconcile may own points for and against God better than believer could. Kind of a strange position for sure as a non believer but I created a paradigm or world view from a starting point that God had to be and that if there was a God at all, all that was had to be perfect.
No self respecting God would have it otherwise.

To make this paradigm work, I had to reconcile the existence of evil and the bad things that I saw around me as well. Not an easy task but I did it.

I read a number of Bibles and Holy books while I was seeking God and found some wisdom and knowledge within these works and have a grudging respect for all of them while at the same time, not reading them literally. In the case of the Bible, it is obvious that it should not be read literally. How can one do so when it begins with talking animals and ends with a seven headed monster. God would not use impossible and silly props.

Bibles have to be judged on the moral position they take or show.

Since the Christian Bible shows a distinct lack of justice or morals in dealing with women, Gays and slaves, there is enough ambiguity and injustice to discard it as a literal document and even perhaps as a moral one.

It may not have been 3000 years ago but it is certainly immoral by today's standards.

It did help to lead me to God but then I do not read it literally or believe it's characters to be real. They are and were always mean to be archetypes.


There are some passages that can and should be read literally because they apply to the reality that I now know exists for us all.

For example.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

John 8:7
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

At about that time, after my paradigm seemed to cover all the bases, I forced my apotheosis and found God.
He confirmed my views and urged me to now think more demographically.

The pleasure and pain of the passing grade from the greatest teacher were worth all the years of mental toil.
Then the toil really began. That being, trying to convince others, with word alone, that the God I found is real.

There is evidence for the reality of God. This evidence you have to recognize and I cannot make you see it. You have to recognize it for yourself and I am pleased to point it out to you. The fist sign of God is all around us. Perfection. If you can get even a glimmer of it then we can reason together. If all you see is imperfection, just because there is evil and sin in the mix, then I cannot help with your apotheosis or rapprochement to God.

I know this sounds arrogant and brash but I cannot help that. I do have some arrogance now thanks to my apotheosis. Who could not be after touching the mind of God?

If you have found your own God in some book or Bible then enjoy Him. If you have doubts then I invite you to look at the God I found to see if some of your doubts can be assuaged.

When born, we can say that you were as perfect as nature and evolution could produce with the DNA at hand. You may or may not had had flaws but this would not negate the fact that nature and evolution did the best it could and that you were therefore as perfect as you could be. From that great beginning, you evolved your perfection to a higher state over time and that that path is constant till your death.

Genesis 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Corinthians 3:23
And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.


John 10:34
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

My question for you then is this.

Do you recognize that you are as perfect as you can be today, while always moving to a more perfect state over time?

Regards
DL

You seem to be stating your belief rather than asking a question. Since your mind is already made up there is little that you can learn at this point. However, it should be noted that in physical life as well as the spiritual life one cannot learn anything unless one is willing to learn.

To paraphrase AVATAR, if your cup is full you cannot be taught.

[Greatest I Am]

Evolving perfection. Do I understand God. Are we all perfect?



You seem to be stating your belief rather than asking a question. Since your mind is already made up there is little that you can learn at this point. However, it should be noted that in physical life as well as the spiritual life one cannot learn anything unless one is willing to learn.

To paraphrase AVATAR, if your cup is full you cannot be taught.

I take it you mean that those who believe they have found God in a book will never find Him and are stuck with what they have.


Regards
DL

[Choir Loft]

Evolving perfection. Do I understand God. Are we all perfect?



You seem to be stating your belief rather than asking a question. Since your mind is already made up there is little that you can learn at this point. However, it should be noted that in physical life as well as the spiritual life one cannot learn anything unless one is willing to learn.

To paraphrase AVATAR, if your cup is full you cannot be taught.

I take it you mean that those who believe they have found God in a book will never find Him and are stuck with what they have.


Regards
DL

Your original question asked if we are all perfect. What is perfection?

GOD IS NOT FOUND in a book or discussion of theology. These things, like a road map, can only point the way to one's ultimate goal. St. Paul wrote that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God".

There is no such thing as human perfection with regard to living up to God's standards. God can only be appropriated by accepting Christ and the spiritual perfection He has provided.