Determinism and Free Will examined

Compassionist · Post by **Compassionist** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:11 am

It is my observation that Free Will does not exist. I am a determinist or a causalitist. Everything is proceeding according to causality. Causality rules!

I also think that the dichotomy between Hard Determinism and Soft Determinism is false. There is only determinism. All things are determined by causality.

Miles · Post by **Miles** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:58 pm

Cathar1950 wrote: Given little of what we do is even conscious as it is often reflex or learned responses it seems odd that such a big deal is made of free-will.

Without the concept the Christian notion of sin and salvation falls apart. It's imperative that free will be true. This is no doubt true of most other religions as well. Then there's the notion that if all acts and thoughts are determined then the meaning of life, whatever it may be, takes a big hit.

Miles · Post by **Miles** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:05 pm

0JesusFreak wrote:Let me pose another question.

How do you know, let me emphasize KNOW, that we don't have free will?

It's on par with knowing that six-legged, fire breathing turnips don't exist. Lacking absolutely any evidence or proof I opt for the alternative.

0JesusFreak · Post by **0JesusFreak** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:18 pm

Did you know with the latest findings in quantum mechanics they have found that electrons are unpredictable and can disappear without a trace or can exist in at least two places simultaneously? Nothing tells an electron what to do or where to go save for which atom it will attatch to on this plane of existence. Our thoughts and actions are, ultimately, are dictated by these tiny electrons aiding in the sending and receiving of messages and information, but if there is no way to predict what they will do or how they will behave how then can any thought or action one makes be certain until it has already happened.

Cathar1950 · Post by **Cathar1950** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:27 pm

0JesusFreak wrote:Did you know with the latest findings in quantum mechanics they have found that electrons are unpredictable and can disappear without a trace or can exist in at least two places simultaneously? Nothing tells an electron what to do or where to go save for which atom it will attatch to on this plane of existence. Our thoughts and actions are, ultimately, are dictated by these tiny electrons aiding in the sending and receiving of messages and information, but if there is no way to predict what they will do or how they will behave how then can any thought or action one makes be certain until it has already happened.

What does that have to do with free-will? So because subatomic particles are to some extent unpredictable we make irrational undetermined choices?
Even the particles are limited on what they can do as they have a number of options but not unlimited options. By the time they get to the atomic level they are pretty much determined which gives little bases to the argument for free-will as some undetermined ability. If there are reasons for making choices then they would be determined by those reasons. Why do you doubt? If there is a why then we can assume there is determination even if there are degrees of freedom.

0JesusFreak · Post by **0JesusFreak** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:43 pm

0JesusFreak wrote:
Did you know with the latest findings in quantum mechanics they have found that electrons are unpredictable and can disappear without a trace or can exist in at least two places simultaneously? Nothing tells an electron what to do or where to go save for which atom it will attatch to on this plane of existence. Our thoughts and actions are, ultimately, are dictated by these tiny electrons aiding in the sending and receiving of messages and information, but if there is no way to predict what they will do or how they will behave how then can any thought or action one makes be certain until it has already happened.

What does that have to do with free-will? So because subatomic particles are to some extent unpredictable we make irrational undetermined choices?
Even the particles are limited on what they can do as they have a number of options but not unlimited options. By the time they get to the atomic level they are pretty much determined which gives little bases to the argument for free-will as some undetermined ability. If there are reasons for making choices then they would be determined by those reasons. Why do you doubt? If there is a why then we can assume there is determination even if there are degrees of freedom.

Sub-atomic particles are everything and remember I said that they exist everywhere simultaneously, from north to south and east to west, to across cosmos and all existence. One of my brain's electrons might very well be in an orange a moment from when you finish this sentence yet it contributed to determining a thought. Because of these random occurences which are, in theory, infinite we have inditermined thought that cannot be predicted.

If they could be predicted then every single criminal would be caught because, according to psycologists, they would be similar with very little room for difference, and yet we can't even catch one infamous man who's identity is anything but secret: Osama Binladin. If we have no free will then why can we not predict his movements even though we have so many things on our side? Is He the exception to the rule that all are predictable? Because that's what we are without free will: Predictable.

Sorry, I have a tendency to ramble before I get to the point.

Miles · Post by **Miles** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:58 pm

0JesusFreak wrote:
If they could be predicted then every single criminal would be caught because, according to psycologists, they would be similar with very little room for difference, and yet we can't even catch one infamous man who's identity is anything but secret: Osama Binladin. If we have no free will then why can we not predict his movements even though we have so many things on our side? Is He the exception to the rule that all are predictable? Because that's what we are without free will: Predictable.

Determinism doesn't confer omniscience upon anyone. But in theory, IF we knew ALL the relevant factors, AND were bright enough to correctly process them, we could predict a whole bunch of stuff. But alas . . . .

0JesusFreak · Post by **0JesusFreak** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:07 pm

Is the universe deterministic?

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:53 am

Miles wrote:
0JesusFreak wrote:There both is and isn't free will.

The brain determines it all before we make an action but there exists a brief moment in which we decide "do I do this or not."
And just why did you decide as you did? Either it was caused or it was absolutely random. If random, than you had no part in bringing it into existence. If it had a cause then it was determined by that cause.

False dichotomy. The brain might narrow down the choices, and then have a weighted randomness.

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:11 pm

0JesusFreak wrote: Is the universe deterministic?

There is unquestionably a lot of determinism in the universe. All of the laws of physics are deterministic except for at a quantum level. Everything else is just applied physics. What in the universe do you think is not deterministic?

Miles · Post by **Miles** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:17 pm

goat wrote:
Miles wrote:And just why did you decide as you did? Either it was caused or it was absolutely random. If random, than you had no part in bringing it into existence. If it had a cause then it was determined by that cause.
False dichotomy. The brain might narrow down the choices, and then have a weighted randomness.

And just what in the world is weighted randomness?