Israel a pariah nation

[Misty]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 195838.stm

It is a great pity Israel was ever permitted to create their own nation without the same privilege being granted to the Palestinians. If the US hadn't supported them over the years maybe they would be so militant. I don't support violence from either side, but Israel seems to be the aggressor in most conflicts.

[WinePusher]

Israel is the only current Pro Western, Pro Freedom, Pro Democracy state in the middle east

Nowhere even close. Though I agree it has a right to exist and to defend itself from attack, nowadays Israel (sad to say) spends a good deal of its energy thumbing its nose at its fellow democratic nations in the West. As for other nations in the Middle East, try Turkey under Erdogan - on occasion, they actually pretend to give a damn what the rest of the free Western democratic nations think.

Let me try to understand your logic. I siad that Israel is the only current Pro Western, Pro Freedom and Pro Democracy State in the Middle East other than the emerging Democratic Iraq. Do you disagree with that? If you do could you please cite another country in the middle east that is pro western, pro freedom and pro democracy.

Turkey, yes I would agree that is a democratic nation geographically located in the middle east. However, since Turkey is a current candidate for potentional acceptance into the European Union, I would regard that nation as part of the so called west.

Given the way you use 'socialist' as an epithet merely to describe people and entities you don't like

Who are people that I do not like and have described as socialist? Obama? Do you deny that the policies that Obama has enacted are indeed socialist? I do not call him a socialist as a slur word, I observe him policies-

-Taking Over The Banks
-Taking Over The Student Loan Industry
-Taking Over The Healthcare Industry

(Do you deny he has done this?)

-which are by definition socialist, and from his policies I am able to conclude he is a socialist. I do use that term in a negative tone because I believe America should be weary of socialism and its societal effects.

might we assume therefore that your own opinions of the West, of freedom and of democracy are as dim as, say, Hamas's?

Assume whatever you wish. Because I have a different opinion, you equate me with the murderous and treachorous Hamas organization? Is that not the typical left wing smear tactic? Those who dislike Obama are Racist (Jimmy Carter) those who are aganist obamacare are aganist the civil rights movement and are racist (The Entire Congressional Democratic Caucus-Boxer, Maxine Waters, Dodd, Barney Frank,etc...)

[Misty]

Israel is receiving the condemnation it deserves! I think for once even that state realises it has gone too far this time!

[chris_brown207]

Israel is receiving the condemnation it deserves! I think for once even that state realises it has gone too far this time!

Have they really gone too far? I don't think anyone is going to argue that it is okay to muder aide carriers... But,what if it did go down as the Israelis said?

Hasn't our nation enforced embargoes - even in our very recent history? The only difference is we seized vessels with "contraband" (sometimes in the form of food and medical supplies).

Iraq is one example - some of my buddies were on boarding teams in the gulf which encountered aggressive ship's crew.

So, how does this situation differ?

[Misty]

The British went too far allowing Israel to become a State in 1948, it has a been a downhill scenario ever since, imo.

[JoeyKnothead]

The British went too far allowing Israel to become a State in 1948, it has a been a downhill scenario ever since, imo.

It's not just the British, but the UN that "allowed" Israel's status.

Given the past and current history of abuses faced by the Jews, I'd say things are "looking up", in that they now have the capability to defend themselves.

The challenge is, stop lobbing or toting bombs into Israel. Can anyone accept the challenge?

[Misty]

The British went too far allowing Israel to become a State in 1948, it has a been a downhill scenario ever since, imo.

It's not just the British, but the UN that "allowed" Israel's status.

Given the past and current history of abuses faced by the Jews, I'd say things are "looking up", in that they now have the capability to defend themselves.

The challenge is, stop lobbing or toting bombs into Israel. Can anyone accept the challenge?

It is a great pity Israel was allowed to exist, but as it does so it shouldn't act like the bully of the Middle East and encroach on other people's territory. Not all Jews support Israel by any means!

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 15:

It is a great pity Israel was allowed to exist...

Pity? Seems quite a harsh assessment, borne of personal opinion, from my chair. For me the issue is no longer whether Israel should have been formed, but how it should be treated now that it has been formed. I agree this perspective is not bound to all.

...but as it does so it shouldn't act like the bully of the Middle East and encroach on other people's territory.

There is a common principle of warfare that you take the battle to the enemy, and that you take the territory from which that enemy is lobbing or toting bombs. That folks in the region fail to understand this should not be put on the Israelis.

Are the Israelis expected to just stand there while folks try to kill them?

[cnorman18]

The entire incident was planned and set up to give a black eye to Israel. The aid was incidental to that agenda.

Israel has an absolute right to prevent weapons and explosives from being delivered to Hamas, where the record shows clearly that they will be used to attack and murder Israeli civilians. That includes the right to blockade and to inspect any cargo bound for Gaza.

All the humanitarian workers had to do was dock the ship at Ashdod as the Israelis demanded, which was and is perfectly legal and acceptable under international law. The cargo would have been inspected for weapons and contraband and shipped overland into Gaza, as it subsequently was. This was known to the crew and passengers of the ships at the time. Therefore, the intent was always to provoke an incident, and not to simply deliver humanitarian aid. QED.

Israel has existed and prospered now for 60 years. Generations of Israelis have been born, grew up, and died there, sometimes in its service. For the Israelis, it's home. It's a bit late in the day to keep bemoaning the fact that it was ever "allowed to exist." Odd that the same people who expect the Holocaust to be forgiven and forgotten so often insist that the horrible atrocity of the foundation of Israel should be remembered and corrected, even after three generations.

What other nation on Earth is expected to prove its "right to exist"? Why is it that the self-determination of a people in its own land is considered a good thing and a right of all humans - except when that people happens to be the Jews? Why are the Jews condemned as "racists" and as practicing "apartheid" when it is the Arabs who demand that the Mideast be Judenrein, "Jew-free" - and Arabs live and work and vote and own land and businesses in Israel, and even serve in the Knesset and the Israeli army, and always have? Who are the bigots here?

Yes, there is a lot about this conflict that doesn't make sense. That's why I don't get into these debates. Anyone who thinks that all the above obvious injustices are reasonable criticisms isn't worth my time.

[WinePusher]

Israel is receiving the condemnation it deserves! I think for once even that state realises it has gone too far this time!

What you think and what you feel does not matter here. What matters is the actual situation over there

and from Gaza, the palesteians launch rockets into Israel. Israel, in order to stop the bombings, blockades Gaza. Israel allows humanitarian aid to come in. Now, a ship tries to run the blockade and you and Europe feel the need to condemn Israel for defending itself.

Instead of posting another another statement about your feelings, please respond to the actual situation.

Please respond to my post 7, unless you cannot then please retract those claims.

[Misty]

Israel is receiving the condemnation it deserves! I think for once even that state realises it has gone too far this time!

What you think and what you feel does not matter here. What matters is the actual situation over there

and from Gaza, the palesteians launch rockets into Israel. Israel, in order to stop the bombings, blockades Gaza. Israel allows humanitarian aid to come in. Now, a ship tries to run the blockade and you and Europe feel the need to condemn Israel for defending itself.

Instead of posting another another statement about your feelings, please respond to the actual situation.

Israel isn't allowing enough humanitarian aid to rach Gaza, that is a fact! The ship had every right to try to run the blockade, which the Israelis had no right to impose. Israel is in the wrong and every right-minded person believes that to be true. I don't condone rockets being fired into Israel, but I can fully understand why there is so much hatred for that state!

Please respond to my post 7, unless you cannot then please retract those claims.