Why Attack Christianity?

[RevJP]

I was just wondering about reasons for what people do. I understand why Christians evangelize. Our faith tells us that we have an eternal soul and that the eternal dispensation of that soul is determined by what happens here on earth. Eternal life, living with the almighty God is based on our faith and acceptance of Him and failure to accept Him as Lord results in our eternal seperation from Him. The choice is clear, eternal glory, or eternal suffering.

So we are commanded to spread the Good news, to allow everyone to accept Christ, and we do so for the sake of their eternal soul, altruistic? Perhaps, but we do it out of love, His love working through us.

So what I am really wondering about is why non-believers need to attack our faith, or feel the need? narrowing it down a bit, why would a non-believer come to a Christianity discussion forum to denounce that faith, or try to persuade those there that their faith is wrong?

I'm really wondering at motivation. We understand the motivation of the Christian for spreading the Word of his/her faith, but what is the motivation for the non-beleiver to attack it? What do they gain or lose? What reward hinges upon them being successful or not at convincing someone to abandon their faith, or to turn away from considering adopting that faith?

If my faith is wrong, and there is no God, no heaven, no hell, what do I lose? In this life nothing, in eternity nothing? As a Christian I lose nothing. For the rabid non-beleiver however, the answer is quite different is it not? If their view is wrong and there is a God in heaven and a devil in hell, what do they lose?

So I'm wondering at why....

[fidelis]

Sometimes and about some things this is the case, surely. But why think it's the case with atheists who question Christianity on this thread? Three of us now (juliod, Arch, and I) have given good reasons for questioning Christianity that are not at all like the reasons you guess (that we're ignorant of Christianity, and would rather attack than learn what we do not know). Myself, I'm well aware of the tenets of Christianity, which is why I reject it--and it looks to me like juliod and Arch know what Christianity is, too. Maybe we know Christianity and therefore question it. This is a hypothesis I suggest you consider.

I wasn't referring specifically to you, or anoyone else who had posted. I respect that you have reasons for not being Christian, but I was just stating that there are instances where people attack something because they are ignorant.

[Arch]

If my faith is wrong, and there is no God, no heaven, no hell, what do I lose? In this life nothing, in eternity nothing? As a Christian I lose nothing.

Another Christian who does not believe the Bible.

1 Cor. 15
17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

If you are wrong, you are to be pitied more than all men.

Why are being so mean? RevJP stated if there WAS NO GOD, if therw was no GOD then the verse you just quoted Steven means nothing.

Sometimes you Christians should pay more attention to what people write instead of focusing on something to gripe on.

Secondly this thread is questioning people who don't follow christianity, IT was not a thread set up to question whether or not the author of the thread really believes in the bible.

Se judgemental people like yourself is why people have such a distain for Christians. I saw no love in your response to your fellow brothern.

[RevJP]

Thanks y'all, some good answers in here, some extraneous jumble and a few comments that have absolutely nothing to do with the question at hand, but all in all, good answers.

Arch seems to have given me the most cogent reasons although I question the lack of acknoweldgement that he was speaking much about religion and man's nature than the Christian Faith. He did say this:

First let me say this I feel no one needs to leave Christianity or any faith of their choice. But I do feel that the religious zealots need more religious and philosophical tolerance

. Which I agree with.

However his claims of all the woes of 'christianity' are more reflective of the religious men, whos secular desire for dominiation, etc. used religion to shroud their oppression to entice the uneducated masses. He speaks nothing of the long history of men violating men for non religious reasons, nor the daily murders, rapes, etc. based not on religious ideals but on mankind being what they are. How many have died in history with no religious reasons behind it?

I acknowledge what he is saying, I'm just wondering at the balance of the view, the 'open minded' consideration of all the truth not just that which fits a specific mind set one wishes to exploit.

trs, claims I used horribly defective 'logic' with no further justification for the comment - thus a completely useless remark really.

People come to this forum wondering whether there is good reason to believe in Christianity (for example) or not. I wish to let them know of the good and important reasons not to believe.

So you are here telling people how much better it is not to believe in God, Love and eternal salvation?

Meanwhile, I think all the good things about religion can be had without the dangerous supernatural dogma

How do you seperate religion and the supernatural? But please let us remember, I was speaking about the Christian faith, not various religions.

Religion is not spirituality. Religion divides people have something to believe in like the advancement of humanity or hope for a cure for children diabetes unites people

I agree. The Christian Faith is not religion, it is spirituality.

Religion is just another bias, not unlike racism that allows a group of people the luxury of feeling superior to others. This superiority complex just like racism leads to disconnection, intolerance, discrimination and sometimes even the subjugation and killing of those who are not included in your group

As is political partisanship, gang membership, union affiliation, club membership and a host of other cliques and groups which have no religious basis at all, the evils you speak of are in men, not in religion per se.

And let's not make Christians the victims here, many are simple rebelling against the constant judging and invasive ways of Christians they have met.

That would not be my intent. I am simply wondering why individuals seek out Christians and try to dissuade them from their faith.

[trs]

How do you seperate religion and the supernatural?

That is actually a very interesting question.

[otseng]

So what I am really wondering about is why non-believers need to attack our faith, or feel the need? narrowing it down a bit, why would a non-believer come to a Christianity discussion forum to denounce that faith, or try to persuade those there that their faith is wrong?

I don't know why non-believers come here, but I'm glad that they do. Otherwise, this would be a very dull forum.

But why think it's the case with atheists who question Christianity on this thread? Three of us now (juliod, Arch, and I) have given good reasons for questioning Christianity that are not at all like the reasons you guess (that we're ignorant of Christianity, and would rather attack than learn what we do not know). Myself, I'm well aware of the tenets of Christianity, which is why I reject it--and it looks to me like juliod and Arch know what Christianity is, too. Maybe we know Christianity and therefore question it. This is a hypothesis I suggest you consider.

Actually, I have been impressed by the knowledge of the Bible that the non-Christians here on this forum have demonstrated.

I have an additional hypothesis of why people reject Christianity. It is not because of what Christianity teaches, but how Christians act. And reading the post from Arch supports this idea since it was mostly a critique of religious actions.

For example, in the US too many Christians vote on important societal issues based on an unreasoned religious position (issues like stem cell research, abortion, gay marriage, capital punishment ...)

I would disagree that they are based on unreasoned religious positions. And it's also not just because "the Bible says so". But I'll leave those discussions in more relevant threads (abortion, gay marriage, capital punishment).

So I think the most important thing is to get people thinking about their positions, and trying to provide reasons for them. And if you can't provide such reasons, you should give the position up, instead of continuing to hold it anyway--just as a racist should give up racism when provided good reasons against it.

I would completely agree. If there are no rational reasons to hold to a position, then it would be illogical to cling to them.

People come to this forum wondering whether there is good reason to believe in Christianity (for example) or not. I wish to let them know of the good and important reasons not to believe.

This is the nature of debate and such activity is not barred here. Actually, it is encouraged to present logical arguments against Christianity. Of course, provided that it is presented in a civil manner (which you have been doing an excellent job at). Truth should be able to withstand critical analysis. And if Christianity is the truth, then it should have nothing to fear from close scrutiny.

[otseng]

That is actually a very interesting question.

Please note that the rules prohibit one line responses that do not add value to the discussion.

"9. No unconstructive one-liners posts are allowed in debates (Do not simply say "Ditto" or "I disagree" in a post. Such posts add little value to debates). "

Otherwise, there would be numerous such posts stating that the topic is a very interesting question since almost all the topics here are very interesting.

[ST88]

So what I am really wondering about is why non-believers need to attack our faith, or feel the need? narrowing it down a bit, why would a non-believer come to a Christianity discussion forum to denounce that faith, or try to persuade those there that their faith is wrong?

For myself, I hope I haven't been attacking the person or the institution. Well, OK, I have taken some shots at Catholicism, and maybe the Religious Right. But my chief antagonist is irrational thought. I think if more people actually thought rationally about things, the world would be a nicer place. Now, it just so happens that Christianity is based on a series of irrational assumptions. I understand that faith is beyond rationality, and I try not to begrudge people their faiths. It just gets frustrating when people try to justify their faith based on some sort of material reasoning.

I think you are right in that many people see the actions of Christians and deduce that Christianity must foster such behavior. It's difficult to see the difference, especially when there are major religious leaders who encourage hate, division, and snobbery. In many ways, Christianity has it coming, what with around 1600+ years of terror inflicted on non-Christians. The sins of the fathers are being visited on the sons, I guess. That's an oversimplification, but I think you get the idea. It's not fair, of course, but people used to think it was.

I'm really wondering at motivation. We understand the motivation of the Christian for spreading the Word of his/her faith, but what is the motivation for the non-beleiver to attack it? What do they gain or lose? What reward hinges upon them being successful or not at convincing someone to abandon their faith, or to turn away from considering adopting that faith?

For one thing, we'd have a different President.

If my faith is wrong, and there is no God, no heaven, no hell, what do I lose? In this life nothing, in eternity nothing? As a Christian I lose nothing. For the rabid non-beleiver however, the answer is quite different is it not? If their view is wrong and there is a God in heaven and a devil in hell, what do they lose?

As a Christian you lose the appreciation of life for what it is. Atheists and agnostics such as myself believe that this is the only life we have. There is no afterlife. Ostensibly, this means that we view it with more care -- we find it more fragile and beautiful. When someone dies, we can't say that they are in a better place. This is the best place there is. Enjoy it. Find out what makes the world a better place so that more people can enjoy it as you have, or more so. For myself, I wish more people would put less faith in God to help make the world a better place and more faith in elbow grease. How many potentially world-changing intellectuals were stuck in monasteries in the Dark Ages? How many people write checks to Pat Robertson that could be redirected to their local animal shelter?

The danger of believing in something that cannot be proven is that you are left open to believing in other things that have not been proven. Like the existence of WMDs, or that ANWR is the answer to high gas prices.

[Lotan]

How do you seperate religion and the supernatural?

That is actually a very interesting question.

Start a new thread?

It is not because of what Christianity teaches, but how Christians act.

Well, there are Christians and there are Christians. The folks at the Pentecostal church that I attend are the nicest people, and I look forward to seeing them on Sundays. On the other hand, there is a local Christian radio talk show host whose version of Christianity I find frightening and reprehensible. This fellow is practically a caricature of the 'religious right'. You know, Republican, conservative, pro-life, pro-gun, pro-death penalty, anti-gay marriage, etc. What is even more frightening is how many callers (carefully screened, of course) wholeheartedly endorse his views. After listening to his program almost daily for the last two years I find that he spends more time and energy selling his political views than he ever does discussing spiritual matters. When he does talk about Christianity, it is usually in the form of apologetics, of the lamest sort. Stuff that "Answers in Genesis" and "CARM" wouldn't even touch. He will happily entertain the idea that the Loch Ness monster is a living dinosaur, but can't believe that an Alaskan pipeline might hurt the environment. No matter though because his audience, mostly Americans, are woefully uneducated (according to polls, and evidenced by comments they make when calling in) and lack critical thinking skills. This is the problem as I see it. Christians of all sorts regard the bible as God's Holy Handbook. It's the first article of faith for many fundamentalist churches. Unfortunately, the 'infallible word of God' is pretty ambiguous, and therefore open to all sorts of interpretations. So when you say that "It is not because of what Christianity teaches..." I have to ask to whose Christianity you are referring. Do you like Ferry Falwell, or are you a Dobson man? In either case the encroachment of "Christian" organizations into the political arena has allowed powerful individuals to pressure policymakers by promising millions of Christian voters a return to 'traditional values' that weren't so great in the first place. The logical outcome of this trend is fascism, American style. Christianity was propaganda in the first century, used to support insurrectionists' belief that Jesus would usher in the 'Kingdom of God' to replace Roman occupation. It has been used as propaganda by other masters for others purposes ever since.

[spetey]

Hi again folks...

People come to this forum wondering whether there is good reason to believe in Christianity (for example) or not. I wish to let them know of the good and important reasons not to believe.

So you are here telling people how much better it is not to believe in God, Love and eternal salvation?

As for God and eternal salvation: yup, I'm telling people not to believe in these things. I don't think people should believe things that are false, even if they really want them to be true. People should not believe in God or eternal salvation for the same reasons they should not believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn.

As for love: you can believe in love and be an atheist! I don't argue against love. In fact I'm all for it!

Meanwhile, I think all the good things about religion can be had without the dangerous supernatural dogma

How do you seperate religion and the supernatural? But please let us remember, I was speaking about the Christian faith, not various religions.

The Christian religion is predicated on the existence of an immaterial intelligence, God. The God of Abraham is a supernatural being, and thus the Christian religion is supernatural. Some religions do not demand supernatural beliefs, such as the Unitarian Universalists. I would count them as a religion because they deal with spiritual and ethical questions by gathering a community of reflective people. They are not supernatural, however.

Otseng, thanks as always for your balanced comments. (And by "balanced" I guess I mean here "in accordance with my own views" .)


spetey

[Mattu]

ST88, first off, isn't agnostic belief an undecided one? As in, you are not really sure what to believe? You seem quite set that God is not there, I think you're using the wrong label.

Truth should be able to withstand critical analysis. And if Christianity is the truth, then it should have nothing to fear from close scrutiny.

Amen

In many ways, Christianity has it coming, what with around 1600+ years of terror inflicted on non-Christians.

First off, I'd like to have you mention at least one time when terror has been inflicted on non-Christians. Please do not try to use the holocaust because that was clearly an example of Satan's lies and deceit at it's ebst to someone of a Christian mindset. Also, if you meant that Christians may be vocal in the ideas of Hell and eternal damnation, let me ask this of you. If you knew, or even strongly believed it was possible to suffer forever, wouldn't you do anything you could to attempt at steering people away from such a fate? It's not even a matter of terror, in the eyes of Christians everywhere, it's an act of love, to be able to share the glory we know with all of our brothers and sisters, before it is too late.

As a Christian you lose the appreciation of life for what it is.

That's quite the assumption, especially coming from someone who up to this point has done rather good at not making any. If anything Christians could cherish this world moreso than any non-believer. I look at things day after day and marvel in their beauty and praise God for the creations He has put forth on even such a sinful world. The beauty of nature alone is something to marvel at, and truly I don't understand how anyone can find something so beautifully created admist chaos a random event. Especially when they all take place on this planet. Priase God! And also, the love I share for my family, friends, and girlfriend are, in my mind, no less than the love God Himself gives me to give to them. Also, as far as doing good in this life (non-Christian and Christian works alike), scripture tells us that God indeed wants us to do our best in every aspect of our life, as if we are doing it for Him, to show our appreciation for this life so that He knows we will be worthy of the gift of an eternal one, and Lord knows I am gretaful everyday.