Who is Jesus?

[good]

Who is Jesus?

Without a doubt, you have often heard the claim that Jesus is God, the second person in the "Holy trinity." However, the very Bible which is used as a basis for knowledge about Jesus and as the basis for doctrine within Christianity clearly belies this claim. We urge you to consult your own Bible and verify that the following conclusions are not drawn out of context:

1. God is All Knowing.....but Jesus was not
When speaking of the day of judgment, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a limitation on his knowledge when he said, "but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father." Mark 13:32, and Matt 24:36. But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own admission, did not know when the day of judgment would be, is clear proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not God.

2. God is All Powerful.....but Jesus was not
While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own but was derived from God when he said, "Verily, verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do..." St. John 5:19. Again he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." St. John 5:30. But God is not only all-powerful, He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.

3. God does not have a God.....but Jesus did have a God.
God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was one whom he worshipped and to whom he prayed when he said, "l ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." St. John 20:17. He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?" Matt 27:46. If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be read, "Myself, myself why hast thou forsaken me?" Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's prayer (Luke 11:2-4), was he praying to himself? When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: Nevertheless not as I will but as thou wilt." Matt 26:36-39. Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own admission and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped, and prayed to another being as God is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.

4. God is an invisible spirit.....but Jesus was flesh and blood
While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that this could not be done with God when he said. "No man hath seen God at any time." St. John 1:18. '"Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape." St. John 5:37. He also said in St. John 4:24. "God is a spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." That Jesus would say that no one had seen or heard God at any time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is clear proof that Jesus was not God.

5. No one is greater than God and no one can direct Him but Jesus acknowledged someone greater than himself whose will was distinct from his own.
Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not equal, and therefore not one and the same, come again from the mouth of Jesus himself who said in St. John 14:28, "My Father is greater than I." When someone referred to him as good master in Matt 19:17, Jesus responded, "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God..." Furthermore, Jesus drew clear distinctions between himself and God when he said, "I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself but He sent me." St. John 8:42. Jesus gave clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather than his equality with God,when he said in Luke 22:42, "not my will but thine be done" and in St. John 5:30, "I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which hath sent me." That Jesus would admit that he did not come into the world on his own initiative but was directed to do so, that he would acknowledge another being as greater than himself, and that he would negate his own will in deference to affirming the will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One and therefore Jesus is not God.

Conclusion
The Church recognizes the Bible as the primary source of knowledge about God and Jesus. But since the Bible makes it clear that Jesus is not the Supreme Being and the Supreme Being is not Jesus, upon what basis have you come to believe otherwise?

My brother or sister, the belief that the Supreme Being is a Trinity is false and completely inconsistent with the words of Jesus as presented in the Bible. God is one, not three. He is a perfect unity.

If you are interested in the truth about God and your relationship to Him, we invite you to investigate the religion of Islam.


What is the word of God about Jesus:

A. Regarding Sonship of Jesus:
That is Jesus, son of Mary, in word of truth, concerning which they are doubting. It is not for God to take a son unto Him. Glory be to Him! When He decrees a thing he but says to it "Be", and it is. (Qur'an 19:34,35).

And they say, 'The All-merciful has taken unto Himself a son.' You have indeed advanced something hideous. The heavens are well nigh rent of it and the earth split asunder, and the mountains well nigh fall down crashing for that they have attributed to the All-Merciful a son; and it behoves not the All-Merciful to take a son. None is there in the heavens and earth but comes to the All-Merciful as a servant (Qur'an 19:88-93).

Truly the likeness of Jesus, in God's sight, is as Adam's likeness; He created him of dust, then said He unto him, "Be", and he was. (Qur'an 3:59).

People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the Truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers. and say not, 'Three', Refrain, better is it for you. God is only One God. Glory be on Him - that He should have a son! To Him belongs that which is in the heavens and on the earth, God suffices for a guardian. (Qur'an 4:171)

B. Regarding Jesus being God:
And when God said. 'O Jesus son of Mary,did you say unto men, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God?" He Said, 'To You be Glory! It is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, You knew it, knowing what is within my soul, and I do not know what is within Your soul; You know the things unseen. I only said to them what You did command me: "Serve God, my Lord and your Lord." And I was a witness over them, while I remained among them; but when You did take me to Yourself the Watcher over them; You are the witness of everything. (Quran 5:116,117)

C. Regarding Crucifiction of Jesus:
And for their unbelief, and their uttering against Mary a mighty calumny, and for their saying, 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God'...yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them. Those who are at variance concerning him surely are in doubt regarding him, they have no knowledge of him, except the following of surmise; and they did not slay him of certainty... no indeed, God raised him up to Him; God is Almighty, All-Wise. There is not one of the people of the Book but will assuredly believe in him before his death, and on the Resurrection Day he will be a witness against them. (Qur'an 4:156-159)
http://www.saaid.net/islam/5.htm

[EasternSP]

You compair your god of Islam as the same God of Abraham but there is one of many very glaring disparities between them that needs to be explained. The Jews are God's chosen ones in the bible, but in Islam they are to be slain where ever they are found. How do you reconcile that?

These were once (and unfortunately still are) tribal battles.

With Deuteronomy as it role model, what else would you expect of the koran...

32:41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

32:42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.

The monotheisms, religions of conversion, are religions of violence. From the OT, through the NT, to its bastard child the koran, there is violence against the unbeliever

I would think that if you could dig into God's word and study it carefully, you would find a specific reason for God's wrath against people who came against Isreal and who willfully disobey him or challenge his authority. As you quoted above, it would certainly appear that God is a blood thirsty monster who delights in seeing people cut to pieces, but ya need to read the whole thing.

[bernee51]

You compair your god of Islam as the same God of Abraham but there is one of many very glaring disparities between them that needs to be explained. The Jews are God's chosen ones in the bible, but in Islam they are to be slain where ever they are found. How do you reconcile that?

These were once (and unfortunately still are) tribal battles.

With Deuteronomy as it role model, what else would you expect of the koran...

32:41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

32:42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.

The monotheisms, religions of conversion, are religions of violence. From the OT, through the NT, to its bastard child the koran, there is violence against the unbeliever

I would think that if you could dig into God's word and study it carefully, you would find a specific reason for God's wrath against people who came against Isreal and who willfully disobey him or challenge his authority.

I don't doubt that, as the story goes, your god had its reasons.

How about addressing this...after murdering their parents, older sisters and brothers - on the orders of god - what do you think theye were going to do with the child virgins they kept alive...play hopscotch?

Is this the sort of behaviour that a 'god of love' would not only condone but also encourage?

As you quoted above, it would certainly appear that God is a blood thirsty monster who delights in seeing people cut to pieces, but ya need to read the whole thing.

I have.

Which bit makes it ethical and moral to encourage and condone murder, rape and pillage?

And on what basis do you condemn Islam given their god is your god?

[EasternSP]

How about addressing this...after murdering their parents, older sisters and brothers - on the orders of god - what do you think theye were going to do with the child virgins they kept alive...play hopscotch?

Is this the sort of behaviour that a 'god of love' would not only condone but also encourage?


And on what basis do you condemn Islam given their god is your god?

Just pairing away some of the stuff to make it easier to see what I'm addressing here.
The reason for only sparing the virgin women or children is because they would not have been involved in the sexual sin that Moab and the Midianites drew the Jews into. Kinda simple when ya consider it. They would be taken as servants by Isreal.
Once again, the god of Islam is not my God. Far from it. Islam calls for the genecide of the Jews which runs counter to God declaring the Jews as the apple of his eye. How would you reconcile that to be the same person of both faiths?

[Murad]

Islam calls for the genecide of the Jews which runs counter to God declaring the Jews as the apple of his eye. How would you reconcile that to be the same person of both faiths?

Justify this ridiculous claim or retract your statement.

Just to remind you of the forum rules:

5. Support your assertions/arguments with evidence. Do not make blanket statements that are not supportable by logic/evidence.

[EasternSP]

Islam calls for the genecide of the Jews which runs counter to God declaring the Jews as the apple of his eye. How would you reconcile that to be the same person of both faiths?

Justify this ridiculous claim or retract your statement.

Just to remind you of the forum rules:

5. Support your assertions/arguments with evidence. Do not make blanket statements that are not supportable by logic/evidence.

Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us"
Though these are only two verses to back up my statement, we hear on the news everyday the ranting of Islam leaders calling for the destruction of Isreal. Are these Islamic leaders not qualified to make statements like that?

The apple of God's eye. Zechariah 2:8.

[Murad]

Islam calls for the genecide of the Jews which runs counter to God declaring the Jews as the apple of his eye. How would you reconcile that to be the same person of both faiths?

Justify this ridiculous claim or retract your statement.

Just to remind you of the forum rules:

5. Support your assertions/arguments with evidence. Do not make blanket statements that are not supportable by logic/evidence.

Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us"

LOL, i was expecting you to quote that.

Thats where you fail, those hadiths are not instructions for muslims to 'go on a genocide', they are signs of the last hour. There are around 50 Signs in Islam: http://www.allaahuakbar.net/important_i ... dgment.htm

I repeat, do you have any proof to back up your original claim?
"Islam calls for the genecide of the Jews", if not retract your claim.

Though these are only two verses to back up my statement, we hear on the news everyday the ranting of Islam leaders calling for the destruction of Isreal.

The news is irrelevent & its a Red Herring in this case, you are diverting the burden of proof.

You also see orthodox Jews calling for the destruction of Israel. So what? There are many Christian 'leaders' that are found to be gay child molestors, now how immature & idiotic of me would it be to assert "Christians are forced to rape little boys". That is the kind of approach your comming with, & its a very dishonest one.

Are these Islamic leaders not qualified to make statements like that?

You are making a fallacious argument from authority. I dont care what the taliban leaders say in afghanistan, nor do 99.999% of muslims.

[bernee51]

How about addressing this...after murdering their parents, older sisters and brothers - on the orders of god - what do you think theye were going to do with the child virgins they kept alive...play hopscotch?

Is this the sort of behaviour that a 'god of love' would not only condone but also encourage?


And on what basis do you condemn Islam given their god is your god?

Just pairing away some of the stuff to make it easier to see what I'm addressing here.
The reason for only sparing the virgin women or children is because they would not have been involved in the sexual sin that Moab and the Midianites drew the Jews into. Kinda simple when ya consider it. They would be taken as servants by Isreal.

You are still dodgeing the issue of your god encouraging and condoning genocide. And they did not take all the children...just the girls

31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

Servants? yeah right.

Once again, the god of Islam is not my God.

The god of Abraham is the god of both christianity and islam.

Far from it. Islam calls for the genecide of the Jews which runs counter to God declaring the Jews as the apple of his eye. How would you reconcile that to be the same person of both faiths?

I don't speak for islam. Nor do I seek to explain here WHY the god of Abraham has been adopted by both islam and christianity.

[EasternSP]

You seem to be attempting to force your beliefs on me as the authoritative word on this issue. I have provided the basis of what I believe in verse and of the current day desires of Muslim leaders. I never mentioned Al Queda, you did, and then you discount it as insignificant, however, they are one of the voices calling for the demise of the Jews.
I really don't think anything I could tell you would change your perspective of the matter. You make a charge of genocide and that's ok? You make a claim that the god of Islam is the same God of Abraham, without backing it up, but that's ok? So why do you wave the rule book at me for not convincing you of my statements but then you make similar claims with no evidence?

[Cathar1950]

You seem to be attempting to force your beliefs on me as the authoritative word on this issue. I have provided the basis of what I believe in verse and of the current day desires of Muslim leaders. I never mentioned Al Queda, you did, and then you discount it as insignificant, however, they are one of the voices calling for the demise of the Jews.
I really don't think anything I could tell you would change your perspective of the matter. You make a charge of genocide and that's ok? You make a claim that the god of Islam is the same God of Abraham, without backing it up, but that's ok? So why do you wave the rule book at me for not convincing you of my statements but then you make similar claims with no evidence?

The God of the Jews, Christians (especially Christians) and Muslims was not the god of Abraham. My opinion Abraham was the worshiped Father or ancestors. According to some writers in the Hebrew writings Abraham didn't even know Yahweh by name but knew him as El or even El Shaddi.
It was not until Moses that he would become Yahweh.
Of course El and Allah are pretty much the same name.
The God as depicted in the OT for Abraham and later was a God that demanded obedience and faith or faithfulness is obedience which includes trust.
It seem in the older version Abraham sacrificed his son. Later obedience remains even if they no longer sacrificed their sons it was within God's right to demand it and more. Even the non-sacrificed children and the ones saved from the angel of death or the god Death were God's to do what with what ever He wanted.
They didn't abolish child sacrifice; they transformed it and asked for everything for God. Just like when Jesus says to Give unto Cesar the things that are Cesar's didn't advocate paying taxes, any good Jew would have known everything was God's and Cesar owned nothing.

[Goat]

I would think that if you could dig into God's word and study it carefully, you would find a specific reason for God's wrath against people who came against Isreal and who willfully disobey him or challenge his authority. As you quoted above, it would certainly appear that God is a blood thirsty monster who delights in seeing people cut to pieces, but ya need to read the whole thing.

Such as?? Can you show any quote in context from that passage ?? Or, to counter it, will you have to quote anyplace BUT that passage?