Israel and Palestine - Whose land is it?

[fewwillfindit]

I received an email today, posted below, and thought it would make a good topic for debate. I cannot vouch for the facts posted therein and it provided no source for the contents. This was one of those emails that people forward to everyone in their address book (which I hate), most of which are urban legend and pure bunk. What do you think?

NETANYAHU AT HIS BEST


Even those who arent particularly sympathetic to Israel s Benjamin Netanyahu, could get a good measure of satisfaction from this interview with British Television during the retaliation against Hamas shelling of Israel .

The interviewer asked him: How come so many more Palestinians have been killed in this conflict than Israelis?

Netanyahu: Are you sure that you want to start asking in that direction?

Interviewer: Why not?

Netanyahu: Because in World War II more Germans were killed than British and Americans combined, but there is no doubt in anyones mind that the war was caused by Germany s aggression. And in response to the German blitz on London , the British wiped out the entire city of Dresden , burning to death more German civilians than the number of people killed in Hiroshima Moreover, I could remind you that in 1944, when the R.A.F. tried to bomb the Gestapo Headquarters in Copenhagen , some of the bombs missed their target and fell on a Danish childrens hospital, killing 83 little children. Perhaps you have another question?

Apparently, Benjamin Netanyahu gave another interview and was asked about Israel s occupation of Arab lands. His response was, Its our land. The reporter was stunned " read below Its our land Its important information since we dont get fair and accurate reporting from the media and facts tend to get lost in the jumble of daily events.

Crash Course on the Arab-Israeli Conflict.

Here are overlooked facts in the current & past Middle East situation:


BRIEF FACTS ON THE ISRAELI CONFLICT TODAY


1. Nationhood and Jerusalem : Israel became a nation in 1312 BC, two thousand (2000) years before the rise of Islam.

2 Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 BC, the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand (1000) years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.

4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 lasted no more than 22 years.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem , they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned even once in the Quran.

7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem . Mohammed never came to Jerusalem .

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem .

9. Arab and Jewish Refugees: in 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews . Sixty-eight percent left (many in fear of retaliation by their own brethren, the Arabs), without ever seeing an Israeli soldier. The ones who stayed were afforded the same peace, civility, and citizenship rights as everyone else.

10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel , a country no larger than the state of New Jersey

13. The Arab-Israeli Conflict: the Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.

14. The PLOs Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them.

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.

16. The UN Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel .

17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel .

18. The UN was silent while 58 Jerusalem synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.

19. The UN was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives .

20. The UN was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like a policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.

Questions for debate:

1) Is this revisionist history or merely anti-Arab propaganda?

2) Do Palestinians have a right to the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, or does it rightfully belong to Israel?

[DeBunkem]

Snopes.com began to to examine this viral e-mail, before the subject was closed. The ludicrous nature of some of these claims tends to discredit the rest. Simple historic revisionism. Who originated the e-mail and why should we believe it? Support the claims before I spend any more time with AIPAC disinfo (IMO). The one about bowing to Mecca is perhaps the most Tea Party silly of the claims...

Since Muslims pray facing Mecka I would say that it depends on where on earth you are... But basically you would have to be in north Saudi or south Israel to manage to have your back to Jerusalem and your face to Mecka...

1. Nationhood and Jerusalem. Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam.
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Well, technically, it was then invaded by the Romans, who then exiled the Jews. Hence, we have the Jewish Diaspora. Indeed, many European states did not become nations until after World War I. Look at Germany, Italy, or Greece, which had significant struggles to become nations.

Did a religious group/tribe live in Israel around the time mentioned? Yes. Were they a nation? Debatable depending on your definition of nation.

quote:
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3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E., the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.
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Um...well, not really. Saying that they had dominion over the land isn't true. But the Arabs didn't really have dominion over the land either. IIRC, it was the Ottoman Empire that had dominion over the land, until it was destroyed in WWI, and the area become a British colony/protectorate.
quote:
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4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no more than 22 years.
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Doesn't this "fact" negate "fact" #3?
quote:
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5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jerusalem could not have been the Jewish capital, because there was no Jewish nation/state in the area.

[cnorman18]

Snopes.com began to to examine this viral e-mail, before the subject was closed. The ludicrous nature of some of these claims tends to discredit the rest. Simple historic revisionism. Who originated the e-mail and why should we believe it? Support the claims before I spend any more time with AIPAC disinfo (IMO). The one about bowing to Mecca is perhaps the most Tea Party silly of the claims...

Since Muslims pray facing Mecka I would say that it depends on where on earth you are... But basically you would have to be in north Saudi or south Israel to manage to have your back to Jerusalem and your face to Mecka...

1. Nationhood and Jerusalem. Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, technically, it was then invaded by the Romans, who then exiled the Jews. Hence, we have the Jewish Diaspora. Indeed, many European states did not become nations until after World War I. Look at Germany, Italy, or Greece, which had significant struggles to become nations.

Did a religious group/tribe live in Israel around the time mentioned? Yes. Were they a nation? Debatable depending on your definition of nation.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E., the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Um...well, not really. Saying that they had dominion over the land isn't true. But the Arabs didn't really have dominion over the land either. IIRC, it was the Ottoman Empire that had dominion over the land, until it was destroyed in WWI, and the area become a British colony/protectorate.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no more than 22 years.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Doesn't this "fact" negate "fact" #3?
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jerusalem could not have been the Jewish capital, because there was no Jewish nation/state in the area.

I'll happily grant all of that; all that was nonsense, or at least distorted. I admit I was careless, and wrong, when I characterized the information as "accurate," but I will point out that I DID say it was "selective," not "fair or balanced" and "propaganda."

That said, beginning with #9, where you left off, it IS accurate.

Nothing to say about my last post, huh? No proposals for a way to find peace, either? Okay.

[DeBunkem]

I'll do that next time I check in. Here's some compelling conclusions from archeologists working in palestine:

Kings or Chieftains? Volume 59 Number 1, January/February 2006
by Julia M. Klein

In David and Solomon: In Search of the Bible's Sacred Kings and the Roots of the Western Tradition (New York: Free Press, 2006; $26), archaeologist Israel Finkelstein and ARCHAEOLOGY contributing editor Neil Asher Silberman perform an intellectual high-wire act. Their audacity and skill is admirable, yet a single misstep could bring their whole theory crashing down.

Finkelstein, chairman of the department of archaeology at Tel Aviv University, and Silberman, director of the Ename Center of Public Archaeology and Heritage Presentation in Belgium, previously collaborated on The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Text. That controversial 2001 book applied the latest archaeological evidence to Biblical history and pronounced much of it fictional. Among the stories they dismissed as myths were the Exodus, the Battle of Jericho, and the notion that King David and his son and successor, Solomon, ruled over a powerful united monarchy of Israel.

David and Solomon elaborates on their treatment of these kings, as the authors sift through the archaeological evidence from dozens of sites dating to the first millennium B.C. and painstakingly analyze biblical history. They suggest that the exploits of David and Solomon were highly exaggerated to legitimize the political and religious goals of later regimes. In the process, they reject two competing claims: that the stories were reasonably accurate contemporaneous accounts of tenth-century B.C. monarchs, and that they were much more recent inventions with little historical basis.

The reality, they say, is more subtle and complex, involving "a core of authentic memories" that evolved into "a complex and timeless literary creation." The authors' starting point is the assertion that in the tenth-century B.C., Israel did not have the widespread literacy necessary to produce these biblical passages. Nor was the Jerusalem of that period anything like the great city depicted in the Bible. Instead, archaeology indicates that both Saul, David's predecessor, and David were little more than highland chieftains, and that even Solomon's capital city was "the rough hilltop stronghold of a local dynasty of rustic tribal chiefs."

Preserved as folk tales in the ninth century B.C., these stories were not written down until the eighth and seventh centuries. The impetus behind their compilation was the emergence of Judah, in the south, ruled by King Josiah, from the shadow of the northern Kingdom of Israel in the eighth century.

The book's most stunning accomplishment is its skillful reconciliation of competing perspectives within the biblical text. After all, if the David story is propaganda, why does it include so many incidents that reflect badly on him? Not just the slayer of Goliath and ruler of a great kingdom, he is also a lackey of the Philistines, the seducer of Bathsheba, and an accessory to murder. Finkelstein and Silberman argue that these tales originated as oral history of northern immigrants to Jerusalem who celebrated David's rival Saul. They were assimilated into the text just as the immigrants were assimilated into Judah.

Not everyone will buy the authors' conclusions, but biblical archaeologists surely will have to reckon with them.

Julia M. Klein is a freelance cultural critic and reporter for The New York Times, Mother Jones, and other publications.

http://www.archaeology.org/0601/reviews/kings.html

Hey folks...this is not supposed to be a one-on-one debate...that's another category. I don't have time to be the only anti-Zionist or human rights participant. I know there are others. These aren't toughies...the issue is clear.

"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are
resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of
the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo
Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

[cnorman18]

I'll do that next time I check in. Here's some compelling conclusions from archeologists working in palestine:

Kings or Chieftains? Volume 59 Number 1, January/February 2006
by Julia M. Klein

In David and Solomon: In Search of the Bible's Sacred Kings and the Roots of the Western Tradition (New York: Free Press, 2006; $26), archaeologist Israel Finkelstein and ARCHAEOLOGY contributing editor Neil Asher Silberman perform an intellectual high-wire act. Their audacity and skill is admirable, yet a single misstep could bring their whole theory crashing down.

Finkelstein, chairman of the department of archaeology at Tel Aviv University, and Silberman, director of the Ename Center of Public Archaeology and Heritage Presentation in Belgium, previously collaborated on The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Text. That controversial 2001 book applied the latest archaeological evidence to Biblical history and pronounced much of it fictional. Among the stories they dismissed as myths were the Exodus, the Battle of Jericho, and the notion that King David and his son and successor, Solomon, ruled over a powerful united monarchy of Israel.

David and Solomon elaborates on their treatment of these kings, as the authors sift through the archaeological evidence from dozens of sites dating to the first millennium B.C. and painstakingly analyze biblical history. They suggest that the exploits of David and Solomon were highly exaggerated to legitimize the political and religious goals of later regimes. In the process, they reject two competing claims: that the stories were reasonably accurate contemporaneous accounts of tenth-century B.C. monarchs, and that they were much more recent inventions with little historical basis.

The reality, they say, is more subtle and complex, involving "a core of authentic memories" that evolved into "a complex and timeless literary creation." The authors' starting point is the assertion that in the tenth-century B.C., Israel did not have the widespread literacy necessary to produce these biblical passages. Nor was the Jerusalem of that period anything like the great city depicted in the Bible. Instead, archaeology indicates that both Saul, David's predecessor, and David were little more than highland chieftains, and that even Solomon's capital city was "the rough hilltop stronghold of a local dynasty of rustic tribal chiefs."

Preserved as folk tales in the ninth century B.C., these stories were not written down until the eighth and seventh centuries. The impetus behind their compilation was the emergence of Judah, in the south, ruled by King Josiah, from the shadow of the northern Kingdom of Israel in the eighth century.

The book's most stunning accomplishment is its skillful reconciliation of competing perspectives within the biblical text. After all, if the David story is propaganda, why does it include so many incidents that reflect badly on him? Not just the slayer of Goliath and ruler of a great kingdom, he is also a lackey of the Philistines, the seducer of Bathsheba, and an accessory to murder. Finkelstein and Silberman argue that these tales originated as oral history of northern immigrants to Jerusalem who celebrated David's rival Saul. They were assimilated into the text just as the immigrants were assimilated into Judah.

Not everyone will buy the authors' conclusions, but biblical archaeologists surely will have to reckon with them.

Julia M. Klein is a freelance cultural critic and reporter for The New York Times, Mother Jones, and other publications.

http://www.archaeology.org/0601/reviews/kings.html

Did you think I was going to ARGUE with that? It sounds fascinating! I'm presently reading The Parting of the Sea by Barbara J. Sivertsen. Same sort of thing; trying to find the actual history behind the OT narratives that were written down centuries after the events that gave rise to the legends. Her Introduction, about how folktales change and grow and are combined, with events from different periods telescoped into later "enhanced" versions, and turn into "oral history" over the course of centuries, is worth the price of admission. I ordered it from Amazon about a week ago and am devouring it like a submarine sandwich.

I've already said that no answers can be found by looking at the past; what happened to David and Solomon, or Moses for that matter, isn't particularly relevant to these issues, any more than anything Muhammad said. Frankly, I don't even think the events of 1947-48 matter very much at this point; that's ALL water under the bridge. Israel exists as a nation TODAY, however it got there, and the Palestinians live under an occupation that even the ISRAELIS don't want, TODAY. I want PEACE, and an end to the killing on BOTH sides, and history isn't going to get us there -- neither Jewish, nor Arab, nor Bible, nor Koran, nor any OTHER history. The salient question is, where do we go from HERE?

If you run across any other books or articles like that, let me know. Is it available online?

Hey folks...this is not supposed to be a one-on-one debate...that's another category. I don't have time to be the only anti-Zionist or human rights participant. I know there are others. These aren't toughies...the issue is clear.

Hey, you don't see ME yelling for help here.

Maybe these issues are "clear" to YOU because you don't acknowledge that there are any other points of view other than your own tunnel-vision approach, the one that STILL refuses to even acknowledge the existence, let alone the relevance, of a decades-long campaign of the planned and deliberate targeting of innocents for mass murder. Makes it very simple, if you only have one side to consider and dismiss the other entirely.

"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are
resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of
the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo
Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

I'm sure you can find LOTS of quotations from vicious extremists. They aren't hard to find in a war that's been going on this long. I could give you a hundred, from either side; extreme and hateful statements made by Israeli politicians and military officers, AND from Muslim clerics and Palestinian terrorists that are just as ugly and repugnant. Do you really think this kind of vitriol, from either side, contributes anything to the quest for PEACE?

You might at least try to find a REAL one. This is another total fabrication, a fake quote from a nonexistent person. I don't suppose you'd care to give a link to the site where you found it? Here's one:

MIFTAH (www.miftah.org)

Of the memorable quotes featured on MIFTAHs Web site (some of which have already been debunked in Part I), the following is attributed to one Chairman Heilbrun:

We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves.

Source given: Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983

Investigation: The quote is found on numerous anti-Israel sites, in addition to MIFTAHs, but the facts do not check out. While Shlomo Lahat was indeed re-elected as mayor of Tel Aviv in 1983, no record was found of any Chairman Heilbrun. The quote was traced to a 1988 book, The Hidden History of Zionism, by radical Marxist Ralph Schoenman (dismissed by mainstream historians as a crazed conspiracy theorist), and is one of many bogus quotes in the book attributed to Israeli leaders. According to Schoenmans footnote, the quote by Heilbrun was hearsay relayed to him in private conversations:

Cited by Fouzi El-Asmar and Salih Baransi during discussions with the author, October 1983

Needless to say, Schoenmans scholarship, upon which many anti-Israel Web sites depend, leaves much wanting. CAMERA contacted former Mayor Lahat who attested that he has never employed, known or heard of any such person as Chairman Heilbrun, and that the reported incident never took place. Lahat also emphasized that he would never allow any of his employees to make such statements, as it completely contradicts his own sentiments about Palestinians.

Summary: Fabricated quote, fabricated source

Really, this is getting kind of tiresome. Aren't you getting tired of having the fabrications and fakery that you're so eager to believe exposed as blatant lies? Doesn't it ever cross your mind that a "cause" that's so ready and willing to use that kind of vicious, egregious dishonesty and outright smear might not be as pure and holy as you seem to think it is?

Maybe YOU ought to go to the trouble of actually Googling some of these shocking and horrifying quotes before you take a chance on posting them. Took me less than a minute to find this one.

See you next time. Looking forward to it, in fact.

[DeBunkem]

I am not yelling for help, but I do have time constraints which limit my ability to fact check the blizzard of unsubstantiated claims thrown up by every pro-Zionist disinfo viral e-mail out there. I save time by referring to the UN, which is the best source of reports invoving violations of its own human rights laws. Just an observation: "letting" the Palestinians carry arms is no more a concession to Palestine than "letting" them have their own state. Israel is like a broken record in using "legitimate right to self defense" as their only excuse for human rights violations everywhere, including the piratical, Mafia-style murder of unarmed human rights passengers of a relief flotilla recently. Doesn't Palestine have the same rights when they are invaded?
You asked what I thought the solution is: same as the UN, which would put the Israelis within the Green Zone and give Palestinians free access to all parts of their State and the right of return to disinfranchised refugees. Perhaps this is why the IDF has repeatedly shelled the UN observation post, and murdering its occupants every time they go on a killing spree in Lebanon?
As you said, there are lots of quotes out there, including quotes about not recognizing Israel, but many others that do. As to accuracy of claims, I again refer to the UN investigation of IDF atrocities in Gaza and compare them to all the pro-Zionist excuses and disinfo from AIPAC and many other sources:

UN Fact Finding Mission finds strong evidence of war crimes and crimes against humanity committed during the Gaza conflict; calls for end to impunity


15 September 2009


NEW YORK / GENEVA " The UN Fact-Finding Mission led by Justice Richard Goldstone on Tuesday released its long-awaited report on the Gaza conflict, in which it concluded there is evidence indicating serious violations of international human rights and humanitarian law were committed by Israel during the Gaza conflict, and that Israel committed actions amounting to war crimes, and possibly crimes against humanity.

The report also concludes there is also evidence that Palestinian armed groups committed war crimes, as well as possibly crimes against humanity, in their repeated launching of rockets and mortars into Southern Israel.

The four members of the Mission* were appointed by the President of the Human Rights Council in April with a mandate to To investigate all violations of international human rights law and international humanitarian law that might have been committed at any time in the context of the military operations that were conducted in Gaza during the period from 27 December 2008 and 18 January 2009, whether before, during or after.

In compiling the 574- page report, which contains detailed analysis of 36 specific incidents in Gaza, as well as a number of others in the West Bank and Israel, the Mission conducted 188 individual interviews, reviewed more 10,000 pages of documentation, and viewed some 1,200 photographs, including satellite imagery, as well as 30 videos. The mission heard 38 testimonies during two separate public hearings held in Gaza and Geneva, which were webcast in their entirety. The decision to hear participants from Israel and the West Bank in Geneva rather than in situ was taken after Israel denied the Mission access to both locations. Israel also failed to respond to a comprehensive list of questions posed to it by the Mission. Palestinian authorities in both Gaza and the West Bank cooperated with the Mission.

The Mission found that, in the lead up to the Israeli military assault on Gaza, Israel imposed a blockade amounting to collective punishment and carried out a systematic policy of progressive isolation and deprivation of the Gaza Strip. During the Israeli military operation, code-named Operation Cast Lead, houses, factories, wells, schools, hospitals, police stations and other public buildings were destroyed. Families are still
living amid the rubble of their former homes long after the attacks ended, as reconstruction has been impossible due to the continuing blockade. More than 1,400 people were killed during the military operation.

Significant trauma, both immediate and long-term, has been suffered by the population of Gaza. The Report notes signs of profound depression, insomnia and effects such as bed-wetting among children. The effects on children who witnessed killings and violence, who had thought they were facing death, and who lost family members would be long lasting, the Mission found, noting in its Report that some 30 per cent of children screened at UNRWA schools suffered mental health problems.

The report concludes that the Israeli military operation was directed at the people of Gaza as a whole, in furtherance of an overall and continuing policy aimed at punishing the Gaza population, and in a deliberate policy of disproportionate force aimed at the civilian population. The destruction of food supply installations, water sanitation systems, concrete factories and residential houses was the result of a deliberate and systematic policy which has made the daily process of living, and dignified living, more difficult for the civilian population.

The Report states that Israeli acts that deprive Palestinians in the Gaza Strip of their means of subsistence, employment, housing and water, that deny their freedom of movement and their right to leave and enter their own country, that limit their rights to access a court of law and an effective remedy, could lead a competent court to find that the crime of persecution, a crime against humanity, has been committed.

The report underlines that in most of the incidents investigated by it, and described in the report, loss of life and destruction caused by Israeli forces during the military operation was a result of disrespect for the fundamental principle of distinction in international humanitarian law that requires military forces to distinguish between military targets and civilians and civilian objects at all times. The report states that Taking into account the ability to plan, the means to execute plans with the most developed technology available, and statements by the Israeli military that almost no errors occurred, the Mission finds that the incidents and patterns of events considered in the report are the result of deliberate planning and policy decisions.

For example, Chapter XI of the report describes a number of specific incidents in which Israeli forces launched direct attacks against civilians with lethal outcome. These are, it says, cases in which the facts indicate no justifiable military objective pursued by the attack and concludes they amount to war crimes. The incidents described include:
Attacks in the Samouni neighbourhood, in Zeitoun, south of Gaza City, including the shelling of a house where soldiers had forced Palestinian civilians to assemble;. . . .CONT'd

http://tinyurl.com/24stcaw

This is only part of the summary. I suggest you read the whole thing before response. I simply project this ongoing killing campaign into the past and the future under a Likud-like government with unquestioning US welfare payments and vassal-like acceptance of Zionist imperatives to get the most accurate determination about who are the real perpetrators. NeoCon, John Bolton-style disdain for the UN is as contemptible in the rest of the non-NeoCon/Tea Party world as the report which the mislead Colin Powell presented to the G.A. to support Bush's Iraq Conquest.



Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none. (View Sources & More Information)
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/un.html#source

[bobroonie]

For me it's very basic.

Who does the Gaza strip or any land mass for that matter belong to?

Which ever government or dictator, or religious war criminal with a massive enough army to take control, controls the land mass at that time.

The entire world and the borders of nations are owned by those who can take control by what ever means, and keep control for as long as they can control it. That is who it RIGHTFULLY belongs to.

You cannot say,

X people were here first so it's their land forever. Which is basically what people say when it comes to the "holy land".

If this was true, America would not belong to Europeans. Same goes for the Gaza strip and Israel.

If Israel wants to take control of the middle east, and nobody wants/can stop them, guess what, it belongs to Israel.

The only difference between terrorists and patriots is time. Right and wrong depends on which side of the coin YOUR on.

[JoeyKnothead]

For me it's very basic.

Who does the Gaza strip or any land mass for that matter belong to?

Which ever government or dictator, or religious war criminal with a massive enough army to take control, controls the land mass at that time.

The entire world and the borders of nations are owned by those who can take control by what ever means, and keep control for as long as they can control it. That is who it RIGHTFULLY belongs to.

You cannot say,

X people were here first so it's their land forever. Which is basically what people say when it comes to the "holy land".

If this was true, America would not belong to Europeans. Same goes for the Gaza strip and Israel.

If Israel wants to take control of the middle east, and nobody wants/can stop them, guess what, it belongs to Israel.

The only difference between terrorists and patriots is time. Right and wrong depends on which side of the coin YOUR on.

Very much.

"Might makes it mine" has historical precedence.

[DeBunkem]

MIFTAH (www.miftah.org)

Of the memorable quotes featured on MIFTAHs Web site (some of which have already been debunked in Part I), the following is attributed to one Chairman Heilbrun:

We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves.

Source given: Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983

Investigation: The quote is found on numerous anti-Israel sites, in addition to MIFTAHs, but the facts do not check out. While Shlomo Lahat was indeed re-elected as mayor of Tel Aviv in 1983, no record was found of any Chairman Heilbrun. The quote was traced to a 1988 book, The Hidden History of Zionism, by radical Marxist Ralph Schoenman (dismissed by mainstream historians as a crazed conspiracy theorist), and is one of many bogus quotes in the book attributed to Israeli leaders. According to Schoenmans footnote, the quote by Heilbrun was hearsay relayed to him in private conversations:

Cited by Fouzi El-Asmar and Salih Baransi during discussions with the author, October 1983

Needless to say, Schoenmans scholarship, upon which many anti-Israel Web sites depend, leaves much wanting. CAMERA contacted former Mayor Lahat who attested that he has never employed, known or heard of any such person as Chairman Heilbrun, and that the reported incident never took place. Lahat also emphasized that he would never allow any of his employees to make such statements, as it completely contradicts his own sentiments about Palestinians.

Summary: Fabricated quote, fabricated source

And you go on about unbiased sources? CAMERA.orgis an purely pro-Zionist website that attacks any and all opponents to Israeli occupation policy, which does not reveal its funding source...doubtless AIPAC. What other conclusion do you expect from the likes of CAMERA? The UN, Democracy NOW and other non-Muslim or Jewish Independent media have proven to be consistently accurate about IDF depredations and US atrocities in the ME. Don't waste my time and patience with Zionist disinformation operations..no matter how slick the website appears. Aren't you tired of ignoring the rest of the world in favor of AIPAC? As for MIFTAH, I don't read Indonesian or whatever and so cannot verify their claims.

[DeBunkem]

For me it's very basic.

Who does the Gaza strip or any land mass for that matter belong to?

Which ever government or dictator, or religious war criminal with a massive enough army to take control, controls the land mass at that time.

The entire world and the borders of nations are owned by those who can take control by what ever means, and keep control for as long as they can control it. That is who it RIGHTFULLY belongs to.

You cannot say,

X people were here first so it's their land forever. Which is basically what people say when it comes to the "holy land".

If this was true, America would not belong to Europeans. Same goes for the Gaza strip and Israel.

If Israel wants to take control of the middle east, and nobody wants/can stop them, guess what, it belongs to Israel.

The only difference between terrorists and patriots is time. Right and wrong depends on which side of the coin YOUR on.

Very much.

"Might makes it mine" has historical precedence.

Oh, lots of historical precedence...Attila the Hun, etc. But now we have the UN, preceded by the league of Nations, which makes Conquest a crime. This was in recognition of the (I need to mention it in reference to the UN) Nazi invasions, and the ruin it inflicted on the world. Israel and the US have shown the damage it causes to violate this anti-conquest treaty by the wrecks they have made of the countries they occupy.

[DeBunkem]

Quote:


MIFTAH (www.miftah.org)

Of the memorable quotes featured on MIFTAHs Web site (some of which have already been debunked in Part I), the following is attributed to one Chairman Heilbrun:

We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves.

Source given: Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983

Investigation: The quote is found on numerous anti-Israel sites, in addition to MIFTAHs, but the facts do not check out. While Shlomo Lahat was indeed re-elected as mayor of Tel Aviv in 1983, no record was found of any Chairman Heilbrun. The quote was traced to a 1988 book, The Hidden History of Zionism, by radical Marxist Ralph Schoenman (dismissed by mainstream historians as a crazed conspiracy theorist), and is one of many bogus quotes in the book attributed to Israeli leaders. According to Schoenmans footnote, the quote by Heilbrun was hearsay relayed to him in private conversations:

Cited by Fouzi El-Asmar and Salih Baransi during discussions with the author, October 1983

Needless to say, Schoenmans scholarship, upon which many anti-Israel Web sites depend, leaves much wanting. CAMERA contacted former Mayor Lahat who attested that he has never employed, known or heard of any such person as Chairman Heilbrun, and that the reported incident never took place. Lahat also emphasized that he would never allow any of his employees to make such statements, as it completely contradicts his own sentiments about Palestinians.

Summary: Fabricated quote, fabricated source

How patently obvious that CAMERA (the unstated source here), would come to this conclusion. The Miftah reference is unreadable. They support any IDF depredation, such as the piratical boarding and Mafia-style executions of Human Rights workers on the high seas. Please desist from wasting my time with AIPAC disinformation operations. this is exactly what I am referring to. My reference to the UN report is my last word on this subject. If you do not accept the UN (which also condemns Hamas violations) but keep falling back to AIPAC front groups, then your posts are hopelessly slanted.